Went to Games Workshop today for a demo of the new Lord of the Rings mass battle game War of the Ring. It is FAST and it feels like a more traditional wargame. Some of the other folks in the demo said (and I agree) theirs a little bit of DBA in there. I was VERY impressed. I would love to see them move their other games to something more like this. They even brought back an old Warhammer rule, where you can use allies in your army. Can't wait for this game to come out!

One man equals = ???

What is the scale of the game, I know it's still the same figures from the skirmish game just rebased but are you fielding thousands of troops?



Lord Abaddon of Wormwood

I have never know FAST to be good with wargaming.
I KNOW that SLOW is very, even extremely, bad (yes, I remember Tactica), but I have always found FAST to be a detrimental to good wargaming as well.
Too much detail is lost.
A lack of attention to individuals and small units always results.
Granted, I extremely dislike HeroHammer, but a soldier/warrior/whatever in the right place at the right time with the right amount of force/etc. can turn a real skirmish and should on the tabletop as well.

Granted, this War of the Ring game may be a strategic game so that the individual or even the small unit cannot be factored in, but too often that is the problem with these new small unit games as well.
This is especially so with Games Workshop, its ilk and the copycats.

This being a GW game 1 man=1 man in terms of the rules, but its easy enough to imagine 1=10. Then again, the game is much more tactical and built from the ground up as an army scale game. As such, I could see it running smoothly with hundreds of models per side. The unit organization actually uses bases with the figures on each base representing both an attack and a wound.

Now, our demo today did NOT include any hero units, but when using them, they actually just enhance the unit they are in rather than doing their own thing. I will have to play a full game to see how that works out, but on paper it sounds good.

Their is also a rock, paper, scissors effect in that all equal face offs have simultaneous melee. In other words, infantry damage each other at the same time. However, cavalry strike before infantry and monsters strike before cavalry. Pikes negate cavalry bonuses for charging. Damage is taken from wherever in the formation the defender likes, though, so you never lose out on attacking. Also, at the end of each round, you seperate the units by a fraction allowing re-maneuvering or running. Of course, nothings stopping your opponent from following...unless they fail their charge attempt. (First GW game I've ever seen with FAILED CHARGES)

...back on topic.

I am far from a scholar of the current editions of either Warhammer game so I may easily have some of the finer points wrong. Either way, they both actually play fairly well. Fantasy has toned down its reliance on heroes (though not a whole lot) and 40K has brought back a good amount of granular detail in its 5th edition. War of the Ring plays more like a traditional, stand based wargame instead of a mass skirmish like the Warhammers. Thus, they added more depth to the charge action. Sure, its only one roll, but it makes things more interesting to me.

My impression so far was also that this one plays more like the combat resolution in Battle of Five Armies or in Warmaster (or some historical gaming systems) than Warhammer, though the "commander's view layer" added in Warmaster is missing in War of the Ring.

Generally, the new system doesn't replace the old LotR Tabletop, it's just a new approach for those who like the models but want to play mass battles.

As far as I am concerned, I'm pretty happy with the standard skirmish rules that support scenario-based themed play. But I feel like the WotR rules present a more fitting mass battle approach to the LotR theme than e.g. Warhammer.

Only really bad thing I find about the new rules is the approach to magic. I will NEVER allow anybody to have Gandalf throw FIREBALLS (!!!) on my gaming table. This sort of RPG-Fantasy barrage magic doesn't feel like Middle Earth.

We did not get into magic at all. If thats the case though...lame! Lord of the Rings was never about big flashy spells.

Thanks Kane.

War of the Ring sounds like it may play well in second edition.
Be sure to call GW Customer Service if you find problems of any sort of variety in the mechanics and the playability.
I do not know if Tim still runs GW-CS, but if he does, he keeps track of every playability problem his people hear of, tries to replicate the problem himself, and then annoys the Lenton HQ about it if it is real.

War of the Ring has the advantage of being second generation material as it is based on the original Lord of the Rings game for which a mass combat system was produced. Specifically, it is for the Legends of the Old West but that is the same system. It seems they payed attention on this one...and it shows. That said, if anything does come up thats ridiculous, I will definitely contact customer support and give them what for.

One thing that bothers me is GWs focus on school aged kids. This is carrying over even into War of the Ring...despite the fact that the interest (at least locally) seems to be older players. All but 1 of us in the demo this weekend were 25+. I would almost say 30+. Even still, they are running events on Thursdays...at 4pm. Talked to the other LotR players who were there for it and they also play on Saturdays, so, even though their is NO WAY I can get there for events, at least the players seem dedicated.

Oh, and found a way to cheaply increse my army size. Someone sold off their collection to another local shop who are selling the metals for $1 and plastics for $0.50.

Oh, this is rather nice. They posted a preview of the rules . Covers all the basic rules fairly well except for the bonus dice for having a high Fight or Shoot score.

Kind of looks like a cross between Warmaster (a game I love) and Warhammer Fantasy Battles (a game I hate). The mini's are nice though. Probably a lot of fun with the right people. Thanks for the links.

Seems like anvil and me have something in common. Not that I hate Warhammer (in fact I really do like it, but not because I think the rules are good, but because it is easy to run and fun to play), but Warmaster is definitely the better game to me - it's the strategic aspect, the commander's perspective, that makes it so much better.
It's not so much about what your units can do in detail, but more where you order them, what you want them to do, and how fast they can accomplish that (or not). LotR on the other hand looks just fine with the skirmish rules.
That - to me - makes Warmaster a strategy game, LotR a fun, optically pleasant, themed game, and Warhammer a dice game (where every battle is party).

I have yet to play the core LotR game, but its basically the same rules, just with handfuls of dice and mass movement. Actually, a couple of the guys said it felt very similar to Warmaster, but without as much of the Commander aspects. Of course I have no idea how exactly those worked as I have never played it, but everyone had nothing but good things to say.

Anvil, what about Warhammer do you not like? Since I got some hands on, maybe I can tell you if its been changed/fixed in WotR.

I might pick up this game as it's being released as a book and not a whopping great boxset.

For those that wanted a Sci-Fi with a warmaster feel: ; handles from 6mm to 30mm covering nearly everything that you would want to field on a table - cept Chaos.




Lord Abaddon of Wormwood

Ab, not only is their just a book and no boxed set, but every army list is in that self same book. AND 25% of your force (points wise) can be of an allied army. And supposedly their are a LOT of different armies using forces from multiple nations/factions. Can't confirm that as the GW employees were not allowed to let us actually read the book for ourselves.

I am actually thinking of attempting some conversions of Warhammer armies and Confrontation as well. Only thing that might make Confrontation especially difficult is the rediculous size of the Wolfen. I'm thinking just treat them like cavalry. That would cover their high defense/hit points and their really REALLY fast movement.

I was going to use Jim's work - bugger painting & bugger paying GW prices (even at third party rates).

Thanks for this thread Kane.


Lord Abaddon of Wormwood

Ab, my pleasure! Jim's stuff should work just great. Plop them down on a 25mm base on a tray of the...uh...necessary size, and your good to go!

Not sure what the size is as I have not measured it, but its big enough to give the figs room to breath (unlike Warhammer) but compact enough that they don't take up insane amounts of space.

Really can not wait to see what a full formation of models looks like. Nine bases of 8 figures each in a 3x3 base layout should be QUITE impressive to behold!

As far as adapting the rules for other models (such as Jim's), I'd be happy to work with you on figuring out the point system once I have the book.

Also the official base sizes are on the site if you dig a bit. They are
Infantry: Infantry companies are mounted on bases at least 110mm wide by 60mm deep.
Cavalry: Cavalry companies are mounted on bases at least 90mm wide by 50mm deep.
In reality, though, I measured one of their infantry bases and it was 59mmx113mm. Not a big deal, but odd.

I demoed this over the weekend at my local store with two 750 point armies and I have to say the game is a blast.

The rule system is well designed and remains in spirit of the skirmish LotR rule system where you can get the basics down quickly but having unit leaders and spell casters positioned correctly throughout your army makes the game challenging to master.

Heroes are powerful, but they are not invincible. In one of our demo games, the Gondor player had The Three Hunters (a legendary formation stand with Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn) tear into a formation of Morannon Orcs (2 companies, or 16 models) inflicting some pretty heavy casualties, only to be ambushed by a company (single stand with 8 figures) of Morgul Stalkers which emerged from a building who killed the heroes by charging their rear arc (the remnants of the Morannon Orc formation certainly helped).

The game does play fast, and because of this there is a loss of detail. Its well suited for Apocalypse-scale games that have become popular at my store over the last two years, and gives me a good reason to dust off my LotR minis.

One thing I like that's carried over from the skirmish system is the use of Might. Basically you're not strictly stuck with the die results if you've got a unit commander or epic hero who has Might points - you can override turn priority by declaring a Heroic Charge during the charge phase for example - but your Might pool is limited so you have to be careful in what you use it for (you can also use Might to modify almost every roll by 1 for each point of Might spent).

To get an idea of how many models you'd need, figure that generally speaking every 8 infantry models forms a company and most formations can contain between 1 and 6 companies around 20 points per company (horde units, like goblins and orcs, go to 9 companies, while legendary units sometimes max out at 3). Most units allow you to add a captain who generally costs 50 points and comes with 2 points of Might and is a bit more courageous than your typical soldier, and a banner bearer (who lets you reroll those 1's when you charge or reroll the panic test if you lose the combat) for 35 points. So an "average" unit of three companies with a captain will cost you 110 points (or 145 if you have the banner bearer) and will contain 24 figures (a 24 figure plastic box set with two figures replaced by a command blister, or a 20 figure plastic box set with a blister and command blister). Rarer elite troop types cost you more points per company, and of course you need an army general who normally clocks in over 100 points.

The one complaint I have is packaging of blisters, with most containing 3 figures for $12-$15 where you're generally going to end up with a spare figure or two if you are building a single company formation (i.e. Morgul Stalkers - to use their Ambush ability you will often keep them at a single company so they can fit into most terrain features). Of course that's just how they were packed for the skirmish game...