I've been involved with a Necromunda campaign at my FLGS for a few months now, and the observations I've made have led me to ask this philosophical question.

I'm not referring to casual gamers, here but to Hardcore Role-players and Hardcore Wargamers. Is it possible for them to get along in a single game system, or is the wargamers 'victory at all costs' mindset to different from the Role-Player's 'Spin the narrative and exercise the imagination' mindset?

It would be good to hear from both Role-players and Wargamers on this issue. Opinions, anecdotes, observations, anything to shed some light on this seemingly vast gulf between the two camps.

To be honest, I'd have to say that you're already approaching this from the wrong point of view, as you're pre-assuming a single, universal type of RPGer.

There are quite a few "hard core" RPG players who've never played a Wargame in their life, and still take the "victory at all costs" mindset into the RPGs that they play.

To that, then, I'd say that these types can indeed coexist.


There are also those (much rarer, admittedly) who are really "into" the Wargames, but still take a casual, for the fun of it approach. These are more the "hobbyist" Wargamers, who paint all their own minis and name all their own regiments and commanders, without resorting to roman numerals.

These guys can take to the "storytelling" aspect of RPGs quite readily and comfortably.

Perhaps my personal view is a bit skewed. I used to enjoy Necromunda when it first came out, And while my win-loss record looked like the Cubs on a bad year ("The Cubs have good years?") I still had fun playing against people and seeing how the next battle would unfold.

With this group now, I am not only getting my head handed to me on a regular basis, I feel totally outclassed, as if nothing I do tactically has any affent on the outcome. I have also been told my more than one person that i'm "too emotionally attached" to the characters.

Perhaps I'm too 'corrupted' by other gaming influences, such as the tradition in Chess that it is goot sportsmanship to inform a weaker opponent that he is making a poor move, shifting quickly and seamlessly from opponent to mentor, not only to help the other improve his skills, but also to provide a better challenge for yourself.

I'm looking for some insight into the minds of wargamers, as well as trying to see how wargamers see roleplayers. I'm hoping that with a better idea how the two camps think, I'l be able to enjoy the game again, rather than feeling a sense of dread as the hour draws near for me to face off against she sharks again.

Wargaming is about having fun too! I agree with Andorax that you are approaching this from the wrong angle. I think the majority of wargamers are not in it to win at all costs. In fact, I loathe playing against such people. They tend to be tournament gamers, and are less interested in the details of their armies than they are the extra +1 they can get for having moleskin helmets on their pole-axe troops or something like that. Most of the gamers I play against are interested in winning, else they would not play the games, but they are more interested in having a good time win or lose. They are also interested in the aesthetics of the game. They want their troops to look good and, if playing historicals, to be as historically accurate as possible. They want the terrain to look good too, and they want the game to be challenging. Winning comes after all of these.

I have known RPGers who were more interested in winning than the narrative aspect of the game. Mind you, when I started playing, D&D was still a skirmish wargame really, before people discovered character realisation and narrative and being dark and moody!

Anyway, I think there is sufficient common ground for both wargamers and roleplayers to get along, and I know many people that do both, me included.

Cheers,
Wukong

I love to win, and don't like to lose, but I think I play for the story and the fun. I often do win, but I really enjoy the progression of characters in a campaign. I know exactly what you mean about getting too attached to the characters, but that's the fun of it for me. Seeing some little chimp juve getting off a series of lucky shots with a handgun and taking down the opponents Top Dog. That's classic gameplay. If she then had her brains spread across the road... I'm be suitably upset.

I've played with people before that were fanatical about number crunching and I really don't like playing with that sort of person anymore. CCotD makes a great gaming partner as he seems to get as much enjoyment from the little things that happen in game as if he wins.

I think there are all types of people... you just might not have the best group right now... but at least you do get to game

EDIT: Actually, I should point out that I roleplay in my wargames, but I'm not really a roleplayer in the general sense. I love computer RPGs but haven't done pen and paper for quite a long time.

Arabin

I'd say I lean towards the RPing end as well. I like to name my Mordheim characters. I LOVE when a lowly rat becomes a character. Its so much more FUN that way. Now, I do like point based systems simply to try and keep things on as equal as possible footing, but I always try to guide the less experienced players I play against. Of course, I do also play RPGs. Favorite so far is Call of Cthulhu.

Kane...you played Mordheim?? So do I.

I love this game!!

I was a hardcore WHF player and one of my gaming buddies suggested to play some Mordheim along with WHB in 2000.

Well, since then I have given up WHF and playe Mordheim. LOL

I still like the idea of WHFB, but I'm not big on the system. LOVE the army books and all the fluff, though. Oddly, those same rules-slightly modified-into Mordheim are one of my favorites!

I agree I wish the Mordheim warbands were writen fluff wise with more inof like WHFB armies but there is where the RPG gamer picks up and creates the fluff was his warband.

I do like WHFB but don't have the time or energy to paint all the armies but to my wife's dismay I still buy WHFB for the fun of it.

Back to the thread.....It really depends on the person. Some people just like big armies and big battles and feel the RPG side of things isn't as much fun. I used to feel the same way until I played Mordheim and watched by friends play "Hack and Slash" or something like that.

I feel in love with the growth of the your warband or models to help take them to a higher level or watch them die.

I don't have time for painting...or much skill for that matter. does a good job for cheap. $3 per average, GW sized human grunt and you can buy your figs from them for a huge discount. I've only got a couple so far. Trying to save for an entire army in one go...but might give that up and go regiment at a time.

He doesn't sound like a very nice person to game with.

Whenever I'm unsure of something, I ask how the other players feel, and we make a judgement call. Sometimes it works out badly for me, sometimes it works out better than I had hoped. It's all supposed to be about fun.

Arabin

Agreed. I think we know the intent of the individual in question. It is really too bad but there seems to be one in every gaming group

How is the guy pinning in close combat? As this is from the rule book:

PINNED FIGHTERS AND
HAND-TO-HAND COMBAT
Fighters cannot be pinned when fighting hand-tohand
combat. A fighter who is hit whilst engaged in
hand-to-hand combat, even if hit by shooting in the
shooting phase, is not pinned.
If a fighter is already pinned when he is charged then
the pin is discounted as soon as he is engaged.

Also, one thing to remember... while you want/need other players to play against... so do the other players. I'd just tell him that I don't like the way he plays, and play with others. Sure, he'd probably insult me a bit... as his way of "winning" but people like him don't deserve time from anyone.

Gaming Bird, are you playing at Games Plus or another store? I used to love Games Plus out in Mount Prospect... best gaming store I've ever been to.

Arabin

HI all! Long time lurker (Well...a month or two anyways...) first time poster! Just wanted to add my 2 cents to this post. I started buying the Worldworks stuff (Addicted to yet another hobby...) because a few friends and I wanted to start gaming again after a few years. The last thing we played was Warzone tabletop though we were all mostly RPG'ers. the idea was Cthulhu with a little more miniatures. Yay pulp! I LOVE the mix of the two... Some nights the figs drop...others they don't. I even picked up Savage Worlds to start a Time Police RPG/Tabletop so I could play around with the other cool modelsets. My buddy runs Cthulhu I run Savage Worlds...Just so I can add more miniatures and play with more Worldworks stuff... You guys got me...I love it...I'm sure I'll end up with it all:) Anybody live in Vancouver and want to play?

Keep yer sticks on the ice!

LOL, my thought exactly.

I know Gaming Bird mentioned Games Plus before, but wasn't sure if made his nest there or not. I ran demo's of GOMC1 there for a while and there were some really cool people, and a couple of annoying ones... just as you find anywhere. The staff were fantastic though. I don't recall anyones names though.

I haven't played Necromunda, but I have heard it's a lot like GOMC1, but that GOMC1 has more streamlined gameplay and a better campaign system. Since Necromunda is a GW product, it might be easy for players to make rule assumptions based on the terminolgy used in the game. So WH40K rules start sneaking in... etc. To avoid that, you could always try GOMC1, and start with a fresh way of writing, and a different feel to the game. It might help, and if not, it's still a great game.

Arabin