[quote="CapnG] "individual rights" is not an absolute, universal concept, it's determined societally. So, for you to make a statement like "The USA offers more individual rights than anyone else!" it's basically impossible to argue against that because you're working from your own playbook as to what exactly that means.[/quote]

Absolutely true, Matt.

Sure didn't take you long to go back on that vow of not replying to perceived anti-US or -Bush statements

NB: I love the US, but I am also well aware of this; the firm belief of many people that the USA is by default the most free nation in the world no matter what, is probably why it isn't nearly as free as it could and should be. (And what your jabbering about Stukas and smileys is about, I do not know - unless you mean the very German-specific rules against swastikas, which it seems odd to guilt all of Europe for).

The US has the largest per capita prison population in the history of the world - not even beaten by the USSR under Stalin. It has the most draconian drug policies of any Western nation (largely a cause of the preceding). Now the president has the absolute right to spy on anyone and to call anyone an enemy combatant not worthy of what is ostensibly the best legal system in the world - even if that someone is a US citizen.

You cannot speak freely on TV or radio, but get fined if you use the "wrong" words. You cannot get married to whichever consenting, free adult you wish. And then there's the broken health care system (with corresponding high infant mortality rates and short average life expectancy) and the lowest social mobility in the Western World. Not to mention that you couldn't get elected dog catcher as an atheist with the strangle hold old-time religion has on the entire nation.

Seriously, dude. There are a lot of things to love about the USA, about its history and most of all about its people (85% of my family is American), but get off your high horse of "freedom". It's an illusion that's being actively used to undermine some very basic and real freedoms that any democracy needs to have.

The kind of tawdry guilt-by-association that leads to absolutely ludicrous statements like Hillary being a Marxist is the kind of polarizing and simplistic thinking that's turning America into a country divided against itself. It's a hideous farce to be watching form the outside and it saddens me to the core, because I consider the USA my second home, but it's one that's slowly being eaten up by jingoism, fear-mongering, unaccountability, outright lies in the service of a militaristic, imperial agenda and an automatic assumption of bad faith on the part of anyone who doesn't rah-rah along and march in the Fox News lockstep.

You are not more free than I am. Except maybe in that you can buy guns more easily. Big whup.

Ok, I have something to say. One thing that you bring up a bit when referencing "individual rights" is gun rights. The problem with gun rights is that while simplistically there should be no restrictions (I'm allowed to live my life however I f'in want), the discussion gets much more complex when you see the whole picture.

1. I'm allowed to live my life however I want... but what about the next guy? The addendum has to be added that you are allowed to live your life however you choose- as long as your choices don't impede that same freedom in others. My opinion is that giving people the ability to easily extinguish the life of someone else takes that freedom too far. It is impossible to support the "freedom of everyone to live as they wish" policy 100% because it is inherently flawed. It is inevitable that someone has to lose that freedom for the benefit of someone else because of basic human nature, and our possesion based society. That said, giving someone a tool that makes it beyond easy to permanently and irreversibly take that freedom from someone else is taking the mantra of "individual rights" too far.

2. Some of my philosophy and personal beliefs are going to come out in this point, but lets face it: people are stupid. People are inherently dumb and make mistakes (of varying consequences) on an extremely regular basis. It is a terrible tragedy every time those mistakes lead to the loss of life. Mistakes with guns are horribly lethal (or at the bare minimum, permanently damaging) and so it makes sense to control their distribution so as to minimalze the chances of this kind of thing.

End of rant. Respond? _

Sacretis

It's amazing how often people don't understand what is said, but read/hear what they think someone is saying. Someone might use a single word to emphasize a particular point, but the listener/reader might ignore the context, and the point, and just focus on that one word due to something they perceived there.

I'm not getting involved in this debate as certain individuals seem completely closed off from stepping back and taking a wider view of things, and lots of comments here are aggressive, and can only be intended to hurt and anger others. I do have strong feeling on these topics, but it is only worth discussing if people are willing to keep an open mind and accept that we are all wrong sometimes.

I keep telling myself I won't read this thread anymore as I get very angry at some of the statements, but I find myself back here for more punishment.

So, that's my statement about attempting to not get involved. There is no challenge here from me, it's just disappointing to see the debate hit a brick wall repeatedly.

Arabin

Well, Kwasi Omfufu, I withold comment on till he answers simple questions about issues, which he absolutely refuses to do.

Hillary? Where to start? How about her "healthcare" scam she tried to pull? Total government control of health care, access to the "system" dependant upon having a card, which was determined upon aquiesencce to various tax laws and GUN CONTROL laws, etc. (Bill directly said that!). With Hillary determining if any specialization was neccessary, and who was entitled to care beyond basic general medicine. (Note: since her scheme was universally laughed at, even by the exstreme left, she publicly offered that anyone co sponsering the bill would have their district exempt from the program!).

Anyone who proposes "Class Rights" is automatically opposed to indivedual rights, I think. Do I need to list specific "Class Rights" that Hillary supports?

And she has said on several occasions that the problem with communism in the East German mode was that the "right people" were not running it. That was verified to me by one of the people who financed Bill's Presidency.


Anyway, I capitualte on every issue in this thread. I'm not about to name names for the sake of a gaming forum arguement. I will say that in the scandel years, I watched various Federal Agents come in and drag out nearly every member of our firm, leaving me and one other sitting their with vapid expressions and a four story building in our posession. Funny, bout a year later, the IRS finally asked who the H we were, and what were we doing in their building. They all thought someone knew and we went about our business, even getting to know some of the various agents that would come and take stuff, do reports and such. On a funnier note, the last straw as far as the investigators were concerned and the act that ended all political protection for the boys occured when our managing partner pulled a gun on an IRS auditor !!!! The guy was PEESED! They did NOT think that was funny! Then came the continuing criminal enterprise charges and so on. Thats a pretty good example of a "Friend's of Hillary" club .

Someday I'll tell the story of why we had a Vietnam Vet chopper pilot employed by the firm, and the allegations of bombing a house for an insurance scams (note, they were acquitted on those charges, under am "Impossibility" defense: Jury agreed that the wiretaps and video showed very drunk guys planning a scheme that couldn't be implemented )

That's the trick. Although my personal views are conservative, I do not force those views on others unless they first force their views on me. It all comes back to someone has the right to do something in front of me, and I have an equal right for them not to. Being civilised, they can do whatever it is out of my sight, and it'll not become an issue.

Arabin

Wow, that was one heck of a debate ... seems to have ended well.

If you don't mind, I would like to say one thing. There is absolutrly no reason not to allow people who truly love each other to marry regardless if they are the same sex or not. I've been in this world long enough to know there is enough hate and exclusion in it. The least we can do is to leave people who love each other alone. Who are they hurting anyway? They need to be able to have help with stable relationships ... health insurance, inheritance rights ... there is a lot of support things that they are not getting and they should have them.

Thats all I have to say.

Thank you all.

I'm not necesarily against it, but it's not as simple as that unfortunately DeltaIce. The idea of joining, legally, for the rest of your life, I have no problem with... but it's what marriage means to me. Of course, if you create something seperate, you are discriminating... and if you accept that anyone can marry anyone, you are also descriminating. It always comes back to I have a right to be here, and you have a right for me not to be here. There has to be compromise, or we aren't actually very civilized at all.

Gah, I wasn't going to get involved in this. At least I'm not trying to build anything today... it's a scorcher in Seattle today.

Arabin

I grew up in England... nuff said.

In Chicago, the weather extremes were really hard to get used to. It was generally more humid than it is here in Seattle, but the way that I coped... I had AC. I moved out to Seattle looking forward to gray skies, light drizzle and hoping to have no more scorching summers... now two in a row that are tough to deal with.

I am gumping water, but I really don't do well in this heat. We don't even have curtains up (new property) and we have large windows both front and back... so yeah... I might not survive the day.

Arabin

[quote Arabin] I am gumping water, but I really don't do well in this heat. We don't even have curtains up (new property) and we have large windows both front and back... so yeah... I might not survive the day.
[/quote]

Oh, I don't envy you ... the heat from those windows will be bad for sure. It might help to just temporarily put white sheets up over them ... dampen them with water if the humidity is very low. My sister's doctor told her how to make a great and flexible ice pack. Get a couple of gallon zip lock bags. Fill one with a 10% rubbing alchohol & 90% water mix. Then put it in the other bag (to ensure against a leak). After a short freeze slap it under your arm ... terriffic heat sink, but don't leave it on for more than 15 minutes. This simple ice pack gets very gold. Its good you are hydrating well.

I don't take heat well either. I never go very far from home without a small weather emergency pack and an umbrella and wide brimmed floppy hat. Take care, Arabin.

Thanks for the tips DeltaIce. You reminded me that in one of the boxes I haven't unpacked yet, I have a gift my wife bought me last year which saw a lot of use. It used to be sold by Sharper Image but they no longer list it. It's a personal cooling system that you put around your neck and it works really well... .

I have read a bunch of articles and a couple of interesting points are:

- Ideally keep the windows closed, and covered with curtains. The curtains should have a white back to reflect the sun. Opening the windows just lets in the hotter air.

- If you do have the window open, have a fan blowing out... sounds crazy, but that will push the hotter air back outside and will cool the interior. Having a fan blow on you does not actually decrease the heat, it just makes you feel like it does.

My freezer is full of ice poles... or I think they are called icepops in the US.

It's at times like this though, that I regret both working from home (offices often have AC) and making the stupid choice of a large executive leather chair as my office chair. Even popping a towel on it, it's still way too hot

Arabin