Isn't games workshop a stock held company now (thats how I say it I know there is a better term for it)? If so could we pull em out of the funk if all the members of the forum each bought one share and got every gamer we know to buy one as well? Do you think we would have enough to consitute a majority share holding?

Ok so I know its unrealistic but it would be cool if the gamers who used to love the games took over the crazy ignorance that rules them now, plus we could offer WWG's some great partnership deals ok buying out GW is going up to the top of my list of things to do once I win the powerball (and no I really don't know much of anything about stocks or the market so if I sound an @ss so be it)

When I first got in to GW minis I supported the local gaming store. He did the bulk of his business with GW (maybe 60%) and the rest a bunch of other stuff like CCGs and the like. The best was he had two gaming tables. So I paid full price to support him, and so my buddies and I had a place to game. This was all back in the mid 90s.

The GW upped their minimum order from $500 to $750, and about a year later to $1000. He just couldn't do that. So he was forced to take orders, and wait to have enough to order. Neanwhile, people got impatient and started ordering (at discount) over the net, or even paying full price to get it from GW. They could get it way faster that way.

The store eventualy closed because GW didn't want to make it easy on little stores (they had decided back then to really pour money into their own chain).

THEN they started clamping down on etailers and their advertising. By 2000 they had shut down just about all of the non-GW sales points. About that time, I stopped buying their stuff. Except for paints, I can probably count on one hand the number of figs I've bought in the past 7 years.

Their strongarm tactics turned me off. As was said, love their games, now loath the company.

Oh, yes, they are a "Publicly Trade" company Drac, which means they have issued stock to the masses. But, your tactics would never work. They have millions of shares out there, and the top people own a whole bunch. With millions of share out there, even if 100,000 wargamers all bought 10 shares, and then signed proxys (voting rights) to one of their lot, they could show up at a board meeting with 1 million votes (every share is a vote) and still not have 10% of the company.

Now, if Bill Gates wanted to, yeah, he could do it. But you would need to have some serious cash to be able to change the company (probably need in excess of 60 million to obtain a controlling interest).

Not going to happen.

As for the online, they ARE allowed to sell it online (it would be a restriction of trade otherwise) however, GW will not allow any online vendor to show any pictures of their products. Since most people like to see what they are buying, it's why most stopped carrying it.

Check out The War Store though. They still sell GW, and at discount, but you can't order online,. You have to call their phone number, and then they can quote you prices (which will be discounted, I believe, 20%). They have been doing this since the day they received the official GW letter stating they had to pull photos and all copyrighted GW art.

Like I said, they went out of their way to make it difficult on etailers.

And they wonder why they went from 160 million in 2003 to 110 million in 2005? Because the long term effects of such stupid business practices started to catch up with them.

Steve

Don't discount Mongoose Publishing as a strong contender. They have some management issues (doesn't everyone these days) and need to clean up a few things, but until the recent troubles surrounding their Battlefield Evolution line, they were doing very well indeed and chomping large chunks of the market. If they can overcome the problems they are struggling with, they may well continue to grow.

I wish WizKids a lot of success. I don't like the collectable aspect of their games, but since I cannot paint to the standards others take for granted, I am happy with the paintjob on a lot of the heroclix minis. Sure, I touch things up a little here and there, but a quick freeze and rebase later and I have a mini done, and can get a game in much faster.

Arabin

I don't believe GW will go out of business. They are too good at what they do as a core business to let that happen. My thoughts surround the changing industry trends.

Thirty years ago, there was no web. Hobby shops were few. Makers if minis even fewer. You bought a magazine and saw a few ads in the back and if you wanted to get into minis you were probably buying them sight unseen. Either that, or you happened upon a game at a store and got into THAT game, using THOSE minis. Options were few.

Twenty years ago there was still no web. More hobby shops though, and more choices. Mostly no good catalogs though, so most purchasing was still done sight unseen. GW was born at this time and through acquisitions built up a line of very detailed, beautifully painted miniatures to fuel their games over the coming years.

Ten years ago the web was gearing up into full swing. Lots of smaller businesses could get into the market, serving niches that before were left unfilled (sure, you could always get ancients and napoleonics and american civil war, but what about 1920's gangsters?).

Hordes of people flocked to GW buying gobs of minis, directly and on the web (at discount). GW flourished. Their magazine/catalog sold thousands of subscriptions. They were THE miniatures maker for all things fantasy and sci-fi. I doubt anyone else came close to their volume.

Their unique placement though wasn't because they made minis, lots of people did (and still do). They serviced the entire hobby. They sold the paints and brushes, and painting guides. Their magazines were filled with cool minis and articles on how even a nimrod like YOU could paint almost as well with just a little practice. The minis were used in games you could play, which required more army books to buy. They ruled.

But 5 years ago things started to change. They treated their web clients like trash, and decided to rely solely on their own stores and hobby stores larege enough to place large orders for distribution. They thought loyal customers would continue to buy in droves. Their philosophy is to cater to the hobby, premium products at a premium price.

They misjudged. Lots of former loyal customers went elsewhere. Not nearly as many newcomers joined the full hobby. The trend in video games should have told GW that more and more kids today want full-color graphics and sounds and flashy stuff now. Board games are dull in comparison. ANd buying bare metal? Even worse.

And now we have several companies pioneering painted plastic minis with a new twise: they are not random-packed collectibles. You want a squad of US Marines you buy the squad. And for prices less than a bare metal figure.

GW will still cater to the "hobby" and there will always be people like you that can paint, and paint well, and love to paint, and get great satisfaction in the work. But I think more and more of the miniatures gaming world is comprised of gamers who will paint if they must. But who would much prefer plunking down their $200 of some figures they can pull out of their boxes and place on the table, ready to go.

I'm a pretty good painter. I enjoy looking at a mini I painted and saying "I did that." I like it when someone in a store says "Cool mini, who painted it" and I get to tell them it was me. And if I only liked one gang in Necromunda, then 15-20 figures later I would be one happy guy. But I wanted all the figs (200+) and every team in Blood Bowl. I wanted all the minis from Warhammer Quest painted (and that became hundreds when I bought more and more). ANd what about 300+ figures for my fantasy Orc army? Or the 300+ figures for my 40K Orc army? What about my Necrons? I must have 1,500 GW minis if not closer to 2,000 and maybe 100 are painted. Too many games I want to play, not enough time to paint.

So the industry (tabletop minis gaming) is changing, and I don't think GW will decide to go that direction. So instead of a continually growing business I see them stagnating (they already lost 30% of their business, dropping from 160M to 110M in two years), holding on to modelers and painters, and losing most of the gamer-first crowd. I think it will take them many, many years to get back to where they were in 2002, and then only if they change their business strategy.

The hardest thing for a company to do though is realize that what they did to make them the gloriuos success they have become is NOT the same thing that will continue to make them successful. I just don't see GW having the kind of leadership that can make sharp course changes. So it's going to be painful for them for a long time.

IMHO of course.

Steve

One little addendum to your list SG; I think GW's business practices are obviously their biggest problem but also I really feel they shot themselves in the foot when they decided to stop being GAMES Workshop and became WARHAMMER Workshop (plus LOTR). Relegating all those other games to the arcane lands of Specialist Games ruined any chance they had of retaining the less mainstream elements of the gaming crowd.

I agree Matt, they decided to focus almost exclusively on the Big Three and relagated their sideline efforts - which at least would get some time in the spotlight - completely out of the picture.

I remember when their spring new release was a sideline game, and their fall release was something for the main games. Those were happier times, but even then, the sidelines received too little attention. Once they were deemed "Specialist" range material, it was the kiss of death.

Thinking back on it, I don't understand why GW didn't realize just how important those sideline games were. I got into GW gaming through first Warhammer Quest, followed by Necromunda and Blood Bowl. It was only then that I finally took the plunge and opted for a core game, building a fantasy army of Orcs. And most of my friends did the same, discovering GW through Necromunda or Blood Bowl. And I'd bet that 7 out of ten of us purchased Talisman.

As for their online retails presence Auld Grump, anyone is allowed to sell their stuff online. So there are no "unofficial" sites. However, GW sent everyone a letter stating they could no longer use any GW images or artwork on their sites if they sold any of their products for less than full list. They could no longer sell through an online shopping cart either.

Since nearly all (if not all) web stores were selling at discount (typically 20%) they had to cease use of art and shopping carts. It was not illegal for them to continue to sell, and they could do so at discount, but you had to call or send them an email and ask about what might be carried, and what the price was, and exchange some emails, and eventually get a PayPal invoice, or you would get to call back and use your credit card.

Let's face it, the cool thing about the net is impulse buying. If I can't see it and know it's cool, and click "Order Now" and pay now, but must remember to call tomorrow sometime and all that, I might not get around to making that phone call.

So GW made a series of decisions beginning in 1998 I believe that forced smaller brick and mortar stores to drop their line, and then by 2002 they forbade the use of shopping carts and art work on web stores. At a time when the broadband speeds could finally handle loads of graphical images, and the typical computer at that point could handle the load, GW was going out of it's way to limit exposure of it's highly visual products.

Boneheaded management decisions have crippled their business. I don't think they will go out of business, but their glory days are gone, and harder times are coming for them because they still think of themselves as unsinkable.

Tell it to the Titanic.

Heh, that always sucks when that happens. These days, I am in the habit of always selecting all the text, pressing [CTRL] + [C] and only then submitting. Too many times in the past have I lost content on web forms, not just forums.

Arabin

I think someone already covered this but GW does sell stock and you can buy in the US but you must use something called "pink slip". I apologize if this is the wrong term but it some soemthing like that. GW is not traded on the NY stock exchange but on the British one.

There is a rumour of prepainted miniatures. Who knows what GW will do. They do have a niche market but I am sure they analyze what people want.

Whatever they do is fine buy me. I will still purchase their stuff from time to time but won't buy whole armies as I don't play fantasy but prefer to collect stuff.