That was another point for why I posted that, one was to get feedback from the more experinced players but also to see if I am the only peron who feels the focus on combat to the exclusion of everything else as a drawback rather than a perk. While I liked how smoothly combat could go I disliked how bland everything else is handeled. I get a distinct feeling that the people who designed the system either had skirmish battles in mind or if they where thinking RPG they really prefer the "bash and smash" style of gaming.

Don't misunderstand me I have played in those types of games before and had fun but I found a wizard with apsolutly NO commen scence but more booklearning the MIT to be more fun than an illiterate barbarian with a habit of answering every question with "Hmm, Thug Smash!". (BTW both characters ended up getting the entire party wpied out due to very poor decisions but good role playing).

I don't think I understand the argument against Savage Worlds here. When is roleplaying dictated by rules? Does D&D make for better roleplaying situations just because it has more rules? Good roleplaying can be achieved with ANY system. Sure Savage Worlds has a tabletop component that is very important to it but I don't think it makes how your group roleplays any different.
I don't see how rolling Notice is somehow not as "deep" as rolling Search or Spot Hidden or Perception or whatever.
One of the strengths of Savage Worlds is that you can create pretty much any character concept you can think of. Its wide open. I've seen Battle Mages and intelligent barbarians done with great success.
The argument I've heard is that the Powers system is too generic. This is because most people don't properly grasp the concept of Trappings and how a power works in different settings. Trappings go beyond what the Power "looks" like in that world; they define how that Power works. Thats important to note.

What would you guys define a "deeper style of play" as? I've played SW since Test Drive 1 and it has done everything I've ever needed it to do and with some tweaking on the part of the GM is, I believe, one of the most powerful systems out there. Its all internally consistent and doesn't have pages of spot rules and exclusions.

I most heartily concur with the Count, here!

Yes, the rules system of SW very much concentrates on facilitating combat, but that doesn't mean it prevents roleplaying.

Quite to the contrary, it allows you to play your role all the more freely by not confining the social aspects of the adventure into a strict rules system.

Just last week, our Rippers group went on a "Socializing Mission". Basically, we went to a party and tried to convince people to give us money.
It turned out to be a 6 hour session and we hardly ever touched our dice! There were a few Persusion and Notice rolls; I had to roll Agility while dancing with a lady (and of course I completely botched that roll and had to spend a Bennie to avoid a terrible faux-pas). But most of the time, we simply played our roles. We had a total blast.

Which reminds me - I need to get back to Lady Weathermay and report how we fared. It's such a pity that the wounds she had sustained in our run-in with that Secret Evil Cult the other day prevented her from attending as well. Such a lovely young lady...

But I degress...
Anyway, yes I think Savage Worlds is not only capable but very much supportive of deep role playing and displaying your character's personality.

First, I'll say I picked up SW because I was interested in how well it could handle tabletop minis skirmishing, not as an RPG, so my view may be tainted.

That said, I think Count Zero is on target here. I believe this comes down to different styles of rules presentation more than anything else.

Does anyone here remember the "classic" Simulations Publications Incorporated (SPI) rules layout for their board games from the 70's and 80s? No? Well, movement would look something like this:

3.0 Movement
3.1 Hexes. Hexes are superimposed upon the playing board to facilitate movement.
3.1.1. Hex lines have no impact on game play other than to facilitate movement.
3.2 Units can move up to the number of hexes shown as their movement factor.
3.2.1. Units moving must follow a path of contiguous hexes (skipping hexes is not allowed)
3.2.2 Units are not required to move.

That was a brief example. The idea was to try and explain every possible angle, so that somebody could fully understand what was expected in any situation. Reading these rules became tedious.

A different game company might just say this: "Movement is optional. If a unit moves, it cannot exceed it's movement allowance in hexes."

Do they essentially say the same thing? Yes, but one has far less room to bicker about the intent, because it's supposedly clearly explained. In the second example, some rules lawyer could say "It doesn't say I CAN'T skip over mountain hexes!" ... but who wants to play with people like that?

My thinking is that D&D has more things specifically spelled out for the players, and Savage Worlds has fewer things specifically spelled out. But everything is still there.

I personally think D&D is too granular. Do we really need 75+ basic skills? Intimidate seems like something you would roll play, based on your profession, your in-game experiences, and your playing ability. Why do you need Disable Device AND Open Lock. Do we really need Spot AND Search?

I think the list could be pared back to maybe 20 or so core elements, and the rest left to role-playing myself. I don't personally care to have a huge list of die-roll modifiers (which is what skills all boil down to being). I'd prefer a person role-play than simply "do the math".

Didn't mean to go off on a tangent there. SW may not be for everyone, and that may have something to do witht he streamlined nature of the rules. But streamlined means fewer classes/modifiers/equipment ... whatever, have been outlined. It really has nothing though, to do with what you can and cannot role play.

You should be able to role play climbing a wall, spotting a trap, picking a pocket, swimming, riding a horse, bluffing a guard ... without a rulebook telling you that it can be done, and how it can be done, and what modifiers to apply when trying.

Steve

Well, I have only just started the Savage path but have a good variety of setting for it already:

Shaintar - Fantasy
Necropolis - Sci-Fi
Modern Ops - errrrrr Modern

Have the Fantasy and Horror Bestiary Toolkits which will allow games in those genres as well, and will pick up Necessary Evil at some point as well.

They have plenty of other settings available as well, with plenty more on the horizon............ but yes, I have to agree with you that they could do with a bit more marketing on its Multi-Genre design with more emphasis on these other settings. They have begun to do that with the Necropolis banners on the front page etc.

I had looked into Savage worlds once before, and I didn't buy it because my initial impresion was it was a strickly pulp style game. I was interested in NE but had the wrong idea of what the setting was about (thining more along the lines of pulp '50s area Scifi heroes). The ONLY reason I finially buckled and bought the SWR core book was because WWG was converting their adventure modules to savage formats, having the game system gives me an excuse to buy the savaged versions as well (I like to suport companies I like). Now I am glad I did pick it up, it is a nice system, though I don't consider myself a true savage, I am still willing to play in just about any game system I have and can find the players for (or better yet a GM for, I really do hate to GM). I was runing (for a short time) the NE campaign but as all but one of my players got shifted around we have been unable to play (hope to pick it back up though).

So that leaves me at my current state of mind, I am wanting to start a generic fantasy game to fill some time until we can pick NE back up. It may only last a couple of months, it may last a year. I am tempted to pick up Rippers and Evernight but have been holding off for now. Rippers becuase it is the setting that draws my eye the most right now and Evernight simple because it is fantasy (even if a little weird). If I had the money I would own every book for every game, even when I can't get people together to play I will sit down and reread one of teh rule books and let my mind wander

Well, until the Arcraetia stuff gets done for SW, I would recommend getting the "Shaintar" Players Book. Its only $10.00 and provides the basic info for starting games in a very nice epic-fantasy setting. The full book should be coming soon with GM stuff (bestiary, plot-point campaign and more background etc). I'm very impressed with it and can see games of this and Arcraetia happening over here on a regular basis in the future.

I love the look of Rippers, but since I'm running Miniatures/RPG hybrid games and don't have suitable miniatures for it yet, I'm holding back the purchase.

NE is one for the nearer future since I have a bunch of Heroclix minis that I can re-paint as PC models.

My next project is "Necropolis". The terrain is nearly ready (Mars Station) and the minis have arrived (Copplestone Castings - just need to paint them up).