Ummm, actually I have never done file sharing. Too many of my friends are struggling folk musicians for me to be able to explain it to myself. Most of these folks produce their own CDs so copying their files isn't a strike against the giant record producers, it's money straight out of their pockets. Even the 'larger' folk record producers aren't very big, and generally pay a much higher percentage than the industry standard.

I hope the pirates ripping you off will cut it out, once a file shows up in one place it can end up spreading very quickly.

The Auld Grump, I may be cheap, but come on people!

The worst of it is...the Pirates aren't coming here.  They're not interested in being part of the "community"...heck, a fair number of them probably never even noticed the web address plastered all over the images they've stolen.

I hate to say it, Denny, but you're preaching to the choir here.  Your loyal, supportive fans are the ones on these boards.  

If you want to reach the file-sharing pirates, find the filenames they use, create a file by the same name, include a PDF of the message you just wrote, your collection of legitimate sample images, and an open invitation to come visit the website and see what it's all about, and start that around the filesharing community.  I don't see how it could hurt, and it might just reach a few of the people it really needs to.

Andorax has a good idea. Talking about it here will, most likely, not help. Maybe you could start putting something in the upcoming releases like what's put on to books ("If you bought this book without a cover, the author didn't get paid...") sort of comment?

I just needed to vent. I approached the "pirating community" some time ago and tried to reason with them on that front as suggested but what I got instead was insults. These people dont give a crap about anything and would rather laugh at hardship than try to be "human" about things.

Arr mateys!

*ahem* No, seriously, it would sure burn my butt to have my hard work stolen, and I think I speak for everyone here in saying that I'd hate for WorldWorks to shut down because of piracy. Urgh!

Is there anything us average joes can do to help (beside he obvious "Don't share 'em!")? Do you have any real legal recourse (without billions to pour into a legal budget)?

 D

There is very little one can do to put an end to pirating unless you have millions to invest. Its an unfortunate fact of life.

To the person who emailed me about pirating (Your email account wouldnt let me respond):

I appreciate your honesty and support. Im not about to lecture you on the evils of pirating. We have all been guilty of it in one form or another. I just wanted people to know how it affects my business, my family and my future. You dont need to buy 2 copies of everything to make amends dude, one is enough. Thanks again and take care.

Grrrr, the ability to download and print the files the day I want them is one of the best things about World Works terrain. If the darned pirates wreck that I am going to be very angry. (Unfortunately, I don't turn green gain in size and rampage - I get a Dr. Pepper and grouse instead...)

A few of my friends in the folk music end of things actually found one of their CDs available through Kazaa before they even released it! It seems that the person that they had doing the digital sound had already put it into his file sharing. The court case is pending, as he had signed a contract... and was the only one with the digital files. The weird thing is that now they can't tell any of the jerks other customers about it because of the trial.

I may hate the large recording companies, but pirating the music is just another group of people abusing the artists as well as the studios, not helping the situation one whit. The real motivation is 'WE WANT FREE STUFF!' This is not a victimless crime, just an easy one.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* Just discovered the nifty auto censoring... Changing the word to one of its milder derivatives .

My one concern, Denny, is that in an attempt to cut down on the piracy (which won't be stopped by printed distribution, and not even really slowed by CD-distribution), you're going to walk away from the model that has worked well for you to-date.

The reality is, though you make it very easy to file-share your products, you also make it very easy to buy and enjoy your products immediately.  This is one of your selling points, one of the things that make people WANT to buy your products, and I really do not want to see you make a mistake and lose sales over this.  

I think piracy is a byproduct of success.  You have a good product thats become very well known.  This attracts the pirates to it.  These people never bought your stuff from the get-go and you can't expect them to start.  I would just continue to do what you do.  I guarantee that you'll see your work all over the pirate channels, cd distribution or not.  It makes it even more of a prize when a pirate has to work a little bit to get it.  I doubt most of these pirates even use the product...they just have it cause they can.  Even if you go to printed product only (big mistake IMO) they'll just scan it and distribute it that way.  In the end I'm sorry to say that theres no way to stop it other than find the people sharing and confront each one directly and threaten legal action.  Thats the tactic the record industry had to employ to put a scare in people, and I don't think its working.

Not wanting to put oil into the fire...
but I wouldn't want to see Worldworks switching to printed/cd mode  :-[

I'd probably think twice about buying such products.

Have a look at other companies which sell paper scenery or tiles:

Skeletonkey has switched from hardcopy to e-publishing and I think their sales improved.

21st century Games went out of business completely AFAIK...
( An Italian based company that sold cardboard sets covering SF and fantasy themes: they were extraordinary!)

The thing about WorldWorks is the instant availbility - as least as long the RPGNOW server isn't flat - if I have to wait weeks or locate a gamestore that carries the line, it will loose its appeal for me.

just my 2 cents

I would want to be able to download the sets, but if there was a economical way to buy pre-printed stuff (especially if it was prescored for easy removal) I'd be pretty likely to buy that, as I go through ink pretty quick, and if you took a note from wizkids new MageKnight 2.0 "Constructed Terrain" (which I'm pretty sure is due to the success of WorldWorks,) they could even be very water and stain resistant. CDs could be useful for people on Dial up connections, but as I'm on a cable modem it wouldn't be useful to me.

I don't think using a CD-based distribution scheme would make one whit of difference on the piracy/file-sharing front. A file's a file, really, no matter whether the original came from the 'net or a CD.

On the other hand, some sort of security key/registration code thing might work, but I really don't know how much of a headache that would be from Denny's point of view. He'd have to stop using RPGNow and move to a secure sales system on his on webpage. And I think moving from RPGNow would be a big mistake.

I'd like to put in my two cents and say that I love the current system; if it had to go to CD, well, okay, I could live with that once I got the disc in my hot little hands. Pre-printed? Yech! Unless there was something very special about the pre-printed format (as opposed to user-printed), it would just be a pain in the butt - not to mention it would eliminate the "just print what you want, as many times as you want" marketing slant.

 D

I think some of you are missing the point here; while online PDF sales were a great springboard for WorldWorks the unfortunate reality is that the files are just too easy to share. I’m bringing this whole thing up because pirating IS negatively affecting sales (I’m losing money). Preaching the benefits of online PDF sales to me at this point doesn’t change the fact that I’m losing my shirt to pirating.

I agree completely that CDrom versions of the product will not curb pirating but you can’t say the same about a pre-printed version. Sure someone could scan the files after buying the print and then upload them but that’s more work than most “piraters” have the patience or motivation for. Even if the odd person does go to all of that trouble you’re still taking away the absolute simplicity of file-sharing the files as they are in their current format. You also have to remember that a printed version of the same product is actually more cost effective to the consumer (after calculating printing/ink costs). You’re also taking away one rather large step in the construction process and saving everyone that much more time. Ultimately a printed version of the same product line is what I’ve always wanted for WorldWorks and I know that there is a market for it.

I keep saying it but I’ll say it again, I DON’T want to move away from the instant download PDF market BUT…in order for me to sustain a certain income and compensate for pirating it must be supplemented with another kind of product. There is an entire class of consumer out there that isn’t computer savvy and would prefer a tangible pre-printed product over something as obscure as a PDF. That’s the market I’m targeting next but I have no intention of abandoning my online sales audience unless I’m forced to do so.

This next statement is VERY important for everyone to understand and I think it crystallizes the whole point of this thread: If I continue with online PDF sales as my only source of income WorldWorks will die. It may be a slow death but a death all the same. Alternatives have to be considered for me to keep this thing alive. I hope you can all understand that.

I understand your point and I hope you don't give up on us too quickly. Personally I would rather enjoy the preprinted version. It saves me ink.  Even though I was going to buy a Color Laser at the end of January. Woo Hoo! I understand why you have to do it and I will support whatever format you "eventually" (key word being eventually) move to. I will continue to support your business in whatever form, because as of right now and I am assuming in the future as well, you do this for us as well as to get paid, whereas most companies do it to get paid and if a few people like it well that's great more money for them...I think you know who I am talking about there.
So in closing (I rambled again!) I'll say. Keep doing what you're doing and I'll keep buying what your makin'.


A dedicated consumer and devoted fan of your work.
Mr. Grimm

Well, you can try doing both, at least for a while. See if that brings the margin up...

I know that I would not be interested in preprinted terrain, the ability to print as much (or as little) as I need is a key point. Frankly the cost of enough terrain in a preprinted format woud be prohibitive. (Even assuming a price of between 50  cents and a dollar per sheet.)

I don't want to see World Works die, but I just wouldn't buy the preprinted terrain. If no one buys the product then the effect is the same as losing sales to pirates - World Works will die. I have seen other preprinted terrain, the sales on such have been disappointing. (Mind you the terrain I am speaking of was by GW, and way overpriced, but even when marked down to below wholesale the stuff just did not move, the store owner ended up using it in the store for displays.) Plus printing has a lot higher up front cost.

Other (slim) possibilities...

1.) A six month period where the terrain is only available as preprinted, becoming available as pdfs after the end of the six months.

2.) Available preprinted for a year, with a year end CD for people who bought the preprinted product. Perhaps a compilation CD for people who bought all the sets for that year.

3.) Subscription service. Receive all the Products that WW comes out with during the year, or a certain number of products regardless of how quickly or slowly they come out. (Again, a year end compilation CD is a possibility.)

4.) A canary trap. (Using a program to randomly change the wording and keeping track of those changes to find out exactly who's copy ened up on the net. Much more complicated than really practicable.)

Of these 1-3 have a chance, while number 4 may tell you who, but doesn't really solve the problem.

The Auld Grump, sometimes I hate people, I wish there was a way to fix the pirate problem.

*EDIT* I would lean toward either the 6 month pinted followed by PDF or the subscription service.

All terrific suggestions. Its something I'll have to think long and hard about before I act.

Enough of this topic, its starting to depress me. Bigger and brighter things ahead!

Yer right Denny...enough of the depressing talk!  Forge ahead!

I do have ONE question though...has sales decreased with each release?

I've been looking forward to pre printed due to the fact i really don't have time these days to print cut glue ect. pop out glue would be much better for me. Even if it twice the cost.

I'll will admit i looked for his stuff when i first saw his sit back in the castle work days on a fileserver. Didn't find it. Bought the stuff, and have never looked back. Price of fame I guess. Your stuff has grown and  been amazing the last few releases.

Maybe Wizkids will buy you out, and you can retire to Bora Bora.

I have to admit, the idea of preprinted isn't completely offputting to me.  Costwise it will be cheaper but my concern would be getting enough of everything in one pack.  I figure if they're seeded like the sample pics Denny has on the site of complete Masterboards then there shouldn't be a problem.  Heck, buying 2 sets for $15 each is still almost cheaper than ink.
Either way, I'll be a Worldworks customer for the long haul.  ;)

To be honest (I'm sorry Denny, I was going to leave well enough alone when you said "enough", but the others seem to have kept this thread fair game), I don't think I would be nearly as interested in WorldWorks if it were pre-printed.

My needs tend to be unique, my uses unusual.  I could never have manufactured "The Cathedral" with pre-printed WorldWorks products.

There are many pages that I'll never print out in a PDF.  There are others that I will print dozens of.  No pre-printed assortment will ever have exactly what I'm looking for.

To say nothing of the fact that I can, with little remorse, allow a given piece or set of pieces to be destroyed by poor storage, marauding kids, or what have you...I can always just print more.  The PDFs are eternal...they're even portable!  If I needed to, I could burn them to CD, take them to a friend's house, print and assemble them there.  Said friend could be across the city or across the country!  Packing one CD is a lot easier than packing an entire suitcase of fragile cardstock terrain!


I have nothing against additional channels being used to sell WorldWorks products, but I do sincerely hope that Denny will not give up on having *some* sort of electronic version.  That's what makes WorldWorks work in my opinion.