[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file 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preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer 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[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file 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preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4586: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/functions.php:3765) [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4588: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/functions.php:3765) [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4589: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/functions.php:3765) [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4590: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/functions.php:3765) [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file 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PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file 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PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file 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in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() WorldWorksGames • View topic - What Could Be DoneTo Widen The Audience Of 4e (Or Next Ed.)
Please do not take this as a troll - if you like 4e as it is now, then fine, enjoy the heck out of your game, that's what games are for.
First off, I do not like 4e. (Or: Why You May Think The Grump Is Being Grumpy Or Trolling.)
Secondly, it appears that 4e is losing market share. (Multiple sources claiming that Pathfinder is outselling D&D as of the last two quarters of 2010, including Borders and Amazon.)
Third - I really don't want D&D (including 4e, if I must) to fail as a brand, but it may be happening. Neither 4e nor Pathfinder is doing as well as 3.X at its peak, even without counting the 3PP that swelled the ranks of D&D. D&D as a brand is important as a gateway - it is the starting point of most roleplayers.
Fourth, none of these points are mutually exclusive - my dislike of the rules is separate from my worry that the line is losing marketshare, and with it RPGs in general. If 4e were to widen its audience I would still not play it, but I would worry less about the future of RPGs.
What could be done to widen the audience of either 4e or the next generation of D&D?
One thing that strikes me is encouraging worldbuilding - something that even Mike Mearls stated was something that 4e was poorly designed to facilitate, even before 4e was published. It is designed to be good for what it is designed for, but not to facilitate independent design philosophies.
I am a rules tinker and a worldbuilder - I like the feeling of looking at the changes that I have made to mark a world as my own, so my opinion is biased. (I have rather the same problem with Fantasy Craft - the systems are too tightly interwoven to really allow too much change, aside form qualities - it is enough to prevent me running FC, and unlike 4e I actually like the rules.)
4e is supposedly very good for encounter building, and good for adventure building, but fails for world building - so how would you change that?
And what would you do to regain lost players? (Short of a bulletin announcing that 4e was a mistake and they are going back to 3.5 - while amusing, it ain't gonna happen, and suggesting it doesn't help in any way other than venting spleen.)
The Auld Grump, who was talking to the folks at Borders again - when Pathfinder is selling more with five books than D&D is with two dozen... something is wrong and needs fixing.
Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit.
I have always found the rules as secondary to a tabletop RPG. If the story and characters are good, why do the rules really matter? I stopped playing D&D with second edition and I still play OD&D on occasion. I found as rules get more complicated, it gets in the way of everything, world building and adventure building.
COG Joined: 08-25-2008, 10:42 AM Posts: 152 Location: Ontario
I'm a bit of a survival of the fittest economic Darwinist when it comes to a brand failing or succeeding. I have not played 4ed D&D, but I have played (when I say played, I actually mean GMed) Pathfinder.
I didn't play any d20 games when they were at their peak and only got into d20 with microlite 20. I thought I'd give Pathfinder a go and I thought it was pretty good. I'm not a big fan of levels, but my group had so much fun with a Labyrinth Lord/OD&D campaign that we thought we'd update the system and add some complexity and depth. It's totally about worldbuilding though... new magic system, black powder firearms, Boston in the 1750s. It's more about the campaign. I could have used Hero 5th ed., but Pathfinder seemed closer to the spirit of the OD&D game we were running.
That said, I am not going to shift to 6th ed. Hero System. I'm tired of chasing down editions of games. My players would stage a revolt. I have enough RPGs to last me the rest of my gaming life so I'm not really in a big hurry to buy new games. Pathfinder was different because it is professionally presented, full of excellent ideas and easy to tweak to get the kind of game I want. There are also a ton of 3.5 ed. games out there to steal ideas from.
I only played D&D for a few years in the 80s before this rediscovery of OD&D. After that it was ANYTHING but D&D as I didn't care for the magic or levels system. Hero was and is my system of choice. It is sad it has moved on, but I really don't need any more books. What I need is more time to run the campaigns I'm already running.
So how does one stop 4ed from bleeding market share? You don't. I think the smaller, independent companies are more reflective of how small the market share of tabletop rpgs has become. When the #5 seller of RPGs in 2010 sold just a little more than 3000 copies, there is a problem.
http://gmskarka.com/2010/10/21/tabletopocalypse-now/
Ok, so how do you stop this? I don't think you can. I think that Tabletop Rpgs are a technology that has come and gone. There will always be a market, but the community will never be the same size as it was in the early 1980s.
There isn't a sustainable model to support Tabletop games lasting another 10 years at this current level.
Print on demand can sustain the hardcore market, but unless it's in a Toys R Us or Walmart, it doesn't exist. Tabletop Rpgs have been driven further underground by MMORPGs and card-based and collectible games.
So why am I still making products for the Tabletop Gaming industry? For my enjoyment. I wouldn't do it if I didn't have fun. It's a lot of work. You have to have a passion for it and work to please yourself because it's not like I'll be making tons of money from a product for a role playing game. It's publishing as a whole though as well, not just D&D that's feeling the heat here. Borders has deathwatch has been sad and depressing. My royalties from north american sales are low. China sales have been interestingly high, then low as they hit the recession as well. I'm interested to see how well I did for the last quarter of 2010. Something tells me more people were buying World of Warcraft and Playstations than my books.
Meanwhile, I'll just have my weekly gaming session until nobody is able or wants to show up anymore.
This is a long post (I'm sorry), but as a teacher, I have noticed that the people who play Tabletop Rpgs in high school seem to be girls. The boys have no idea and are so concerned about their "social status" that something like Role Playing would be out of the question... plus they'd have to read a book or something. Mostly anecdotal evidence there, but it seems to have been moving this way for the past decade.
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
Oscar Wilde
Actually, 3.X is the most successful that D&D has ever been, even leaving out 3PP offerings.. 4e did well in its first four quarters (better than 3.0 in its first four quarters, not counting high returns - the material did eventually sell), and has been on a curve downwards since. Slowly at first, but the drop has recently become precipitous.
The problem, I think, is that the current management of WotC has come to view the 3PP as competitors, not collaborators. And, hey Presto! they are now proven right, since Pathfinder is now outselling them in some (most?) markets.
Paizo meanwhile still prefers to think of the 3PP as collaborators and is enjoying the support that used to be WotC's. And since the Paizo game shop is more than willing to sell products from other publishers it is paying off. (TSR used to do the same, way back when, through The Dungeon hobby shop.) Some products even have endorsements from the staff of Paizo.... (WotC used to do that - look at Relics & Rituals for Scarred Lands.)
WotC has grabbed a larger slice of a smaller pie, but the amount of pie on their plate is actually smaller than under 3.X. Unfortunately, Piazo's pie is also smaller, but they do have more pie than WotC at this point.
The Auld Grump, mmmmm, pie....
Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit.
WorldWorks Moderator Joined: 09-30-2006, 12:34 AM Posts: 3934 Location: New Zealand
This may not be what you wanted to hear: but the reasons why D&D needs to succeed are the very reasons
Why we should be switching to Pathfinder!
The underlying premise here is that the Dungeons & Dragons brand largely determines the size of the table top RPG market; that it does this buy being 1. the dominant source of new tabletop RPG players, and 2. the major driver of player retention. Putting aside any views I may have about D&D, 4e or otherwise, I've got to agree with this. D&D may have its (how shall I put it) quirks? disadvantages? detractors?; but it does have the one thing that is essential for tabletop RPGing: lots of players all over the world.
Tabletop RPGing is a social game. It requires a group of people who all want to play the same game. It's a lot like texting. Who would bother texting if there was nobody to text with? But get a group of people who a) want to text, and b) all have text capable phones and they'll all do it. But wanting to text is not enough, each person has to use a phone that uses the same texting system - without this compatibility, texting couldn't happen, regardless of how much interest there was in the community. My gaming group has abandoned D&D. But if each of us had to relocate, I'd bet every one of us would return to D&D (or equivalent - more on this below), simply to increase the chances of finding another RPG group to join in our new hometowns.
However, while the D&D/d20 community had grown significantly under the OGL, the move to 4e fractured the community, undermining the universality of D&D and ultimately shrinking the tabletop RPG market (hence AG's post). WotC did this because their model for D&D required it: if you sell rule sets with an open ended life, then the only way to continue in business once you've reached market saturation is to obsolete the current sets and replace them with a new version. Unless they change their business model (and there is no evidence that they are even contemplating this), then WotC are going to have to do this all again in 3-4 years time (assuming they hold out that long). Which is why D&D stopped being the future of the tabletop RPG market the moment WotC broke the market with 4e.
Pathfinder sure looks like is the best bet for the future of tabletop RPGs, as this is the system with the best chance of both retaining and growing the tabletop RPG market. Paizo's business model is not built on forced obsolescence of rule sets (with its attendant impact on existing customers). Instead, Paizo's business model is based around building add-on material that extends an existing rule set. Sure, Paizo have found a way to sell a whole new set of rules books. But they've retained existing players by protecting their investment (in $ and learning time), and they are building directly on the creativity and scale of the OGL market. To clinch it all, they have a very attractive solution for new customers (not to mention the huge pool of existing people for these new customers to play with).
So, for the reasons outlined above, we need to do the following if we want the tabletop RPG market to grow sustainably:
1) switch support to the Pathfinder and its wider market; and
2) promote ongoing retention of OGL/Pathfinder v1 compatibility as the best way to ensure long term market growth and sales revenues.
Moderator posts are in green oraquamarine. My posts are my personal opinion only and do not represent the official view of WorldWorksGames.
Dirigible Joined: 10-17-2007, 07:46 AM Posts: 1201
I do and I don't care whether 4e succeeds.
WOTC has tied itself very strongly to the Local Game Stores in a way that no other game company has. So, any money you spend online or away from your game store, is just another nail in the coffin for that game store.
In the words of Wolfgang Baur (Kobold Quarterly);
"The Pathfinder RPG is 500+ pages long; it’s newbie-hostile, and largely assumes that you have already mastered basic roleplaying concepts. The 4th Edition D&D rules set requires that you subscribe to a paywall Web site to keep up with new releases and to have a decent character generator. Most players learn these games from someone who already knows them. The contradiction and the tragedy of it is that most veteran gamers disdain the idea of teaching newbies, and the intro boxes certainly assume that both the DM and players are novices."
The reality is that if we all keep shifting our purchases to pdf, we will kill our own industry. (Yes... Denny included, who's current project is to get terrain into stores, and put a Turkey on his table for Christmas.)
It doesn't matter whether 4e succeeds. What matters is whether we can attract and maintain players. WOTC is bringing in new players by the tens of thousands. (That's what the UK rep said.) Name another company doing that. Just one. I challenge you.
Many people in this forum decried that WOTC was trying to sell collectible cards to RPG gamers (Gamma World), and completely ignoring that the amount of money brought in earns your store keeper less than minimum wage.
To that end I say we should all go out, find some people, dust off a game we know is fun and like, and get them hooked.
Support your local game store.
What really matters for the future is how any company's web presence, brings in and makes it easy for a new player. Remember, those game stores may not be there in the future, we're too lazy to get off our fat asses and teach new players.
Once again, my players remind me that AD&D stands for Attention Deficit & Disorder...
Boiler Joined: 10-11-2004, 06:37 AM Posts: 374 Location: Cincinnati, OH
I know it may be blasphemy to some, but I think they had the correct idea with the essentials line of products. To grow the game in todays world you got to get new players into the game, how do you do that, get it into mainstream markets. The Red Box was sold at Target, you can play D&D with a minimal number of books with the essentials line. Essentials characters can be created with the player making about 2 choices and then they are good to go and they are rolling dice and slaying monsters. See the success of World of Warcraft and make a comparison.
Any version of D&D after about 2 years (your milage may varry) just had too much to keep track of. 3rd edition had that very problem with OGL. I see OGL as the problem not the solution. For the few gems that OGL brought forth it also brought out a ton of crap and extended the bloat of 3rd edition by a huge factor. Do I have to go to the book of Erotic Fantasy? Really?
OGL is good for us the established base, but that is not going to grow the hobby. Keeping us happy may maintain a level of income, but that is a downward spiral, we eventually quit, grow up and have kids, or die. There have to be flashy products in public spaces to add new players. To use another example D&D is kind of a gateway drug, same with the Warhammer line of games. It is where many of us start, and then we move on to other systems. So in the long run I think a corporate run front end system may be the way to go, be that gateway. Update the edition every 3-4 years to make the edition more frendily to the mainstream public and allow us to wallow in our other systems. Today they need to be in the new media world. If I could figure out how to monitize a game played by text message.
Sorry for the rambling.
--Chris
Some people say I kitbash, this is incorrect since I am male and genetically incapable of reading instructions. I cut, score, and fold until it fits together, the only way the author could have intended it. Right?
Boiler Joined: 10-11-2004, 06:37 AM Posts: 374 Location: Cincinnati, OH
Some people say I kitbash, this is incorrect since I am male and genetically incapable of reading instructions. I cut, score, and fold until it fits together, the only way the author could have intended it. Right?
Boiler Joined: 10-11-2004, 06:37 AM Posts: 374 Location: Cincinnati, OH
Some people say I kitbash, this is incorrect since I am male and genetically incapable of reading instructions. I cut, score, and fold until it fits together, the only way the author could have intended it. Right?
Dirigible Joined: 10-17-2007, 07:46 AM Posts: 1201
OGL is very relevant here. Paizo was able to cut and paste a 'new' game. That drastically alters their business plan. If they had to do something new, they'd be in the same boat as Goodman.
Anyways, you make a lot of good points about adapting or dieing. At first I scoffed at Open Design, but if you think about it, an RPG setting has a very limited appeal. What is so wrong with getting together with some other guys and contributing as a group to a project? I"m now a patron at Kobold Quarterly. On the other hand it is one more nail in the coffin of my LGS, and therefore WOTC who is putting its effort into attracting new players.
So... Everyone... get off your fat ass and introduce some new players to RPGs. I've already spawned a D&D club at the local elementary school. I dare you to do better!
Once again, my players remind me that AD&D stands for Attention Deficit & Disorder...
At least locally 4e is not growing the industry better than PF - the local borders sold more copies of PF to new players than they did the 4e starter set. (I know about the new PF players - I am the one who ran their first game.) They sold five of the red box. (Which means that I was dead wrong in thinking that the boxed starter was going to be a huge seller. )
I agree that the monstrously large core rules for Pathfinder makes it ill suited for new players, especially young ones, though there is a starter/basic PF in the works. But the 'tens of thousands' is not happening with Red Box Essentials either. Or even TP Essentials. (I was wrong about that, too - I thought that with the smaller pricetag Essentials would take off - it hasn't, and according to some WotC is already getting ready to abandon it - they have rescheduled at least one TP as HC.)
I'd like to say that Basic PF will be a runaway best seller, but given the predictions I had for Essentials....
As for whether the OGL was good for WotC... if WotC had not created it then I suspect that 3e would not have grown so strong, so fast. Creating the OGL may have been a mistake, but creating it and then trying to back away from it definitely was - like trying to force a djinn back into the bottle.
The Auld Grump
Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit.
COG Joined: 10-22-2007, 09:58 PM Posts: 91 Location: Flint, The real Urban Mayhem, Michigan
What could be done to widen the appeal of D&D?
That's easy, bring back Second Edition. It was around for how long? Just over 10 years, and if you look there wasn't as much difference between 1st and 2nd edition as there was 2nd to third. When I was playing 2nd edition one of the groups I played with used both 1st ed and 2nd ed rules together without any problems, IIRC the biggest difference between the two was the thac0, and of course some updates to the rule mechanics, it wasnt a total rewrite of the rules. What put me off of D&D was the fact that going from 2nd to 3rd you had too much conversion to do.
What WotC should have done was keep 2nd edition going and created a more streamlined basic rules lite version and marketed it as D&D Basic, an into system to draw new players in, and inform the buyers that the Basic Edition is just that a Basic introduction edition, to get more from the game and access the myriad of available campaign settings to look at the AD&D 2nd edition rules.
Unfortunately since third edition came out I haven't played a game of D&D other then the PC games like Neverwinter Nights, primarily due to my disgust with the work it would have required me to convert all my campaign notes (for a period of about 5 years) from 2nd ed to 3rd ed, and learn a whole new rule system, which at the time was very broken. If you remember 3.5 was released in 2003, and then in 2005 WotC started development of 4ed, which was released in 2008. to me this shows that both 3 and 3.5 were broken if in less then a 3 year period they had to release a revised edition and then withing 2 years of releasing the revised (3.5) edition they started work on a new addition. What I am wondering is how long will it be before we see D&D5th ed, and will is still be broken. Granted 2nd edition wasn't 100% perfect, but it worked and it lasted longer then the later editions and had great support (numerous campaign worlds, supplemental handbooks such as the Player's Option books that detailed specific classes).
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