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in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() WorldWorksGames • View topic - A D&D 4E Review...
Sprocket Joined: 02-17-2008, 04:30 PM Posts: 17 Location: Terrace BC
I am clearly unimpressed by the attempts of Wizards of the Coast to repackage another hack and slash dice roller. There is a time and place for this, but again WotC has complettely forgetten the "Roleplaying" part of a roleplaying game.
Skill systems and feats have ruined the entire experience of "Roleplaying" and have given way to a rules intensive "Handbook Reffrencing" game that is more like an advanced system of Warhammer. I know there are players who like this way of playing, and no offence to you at all, but after seeing litterally dozens of players fighting with a DM (which is 100% opposite of roleplaying) about Attack of Oppertunity, Grappling, ext, I have lost all faith in WotC revisions.
No matter what executive catch phrases are said "This is truly a D&D 4th Edition" The fact is this is just another 3.5.5. They might have dropped a few things and added some others, but really thats no different that any of the changes we have made with our own house rules. They have not made teaching roleplaying any part of their products, and with the new online component, and smaller page counts, we can expect that this subject will NEVER be covered the way a true new edition should.
I think as WorldWorks supporters we understand supporting small buisness, and when I look at the 3.0-3.5 librabry I have stacked behind me on two separate shelves, I think now more than ever we should really be looking at other allternatives than having to give Wizards of the Coast hundreds of dollars more to rebuy the same rehashed/revised libraries that we all have.
I really suggest checking out the Castles & Crusades roleplaying game. Troll Lord Games is a great example of a great company that understands consummers needs and wants through their extreamly active onsite forums. Troll Lord Games not only supports Castles & Crusaders but Lejendary Adventure, which is Gary Gygax's own roleplaying game. Also Gygax himself has done most to all of the work for Castles & Crusades modules, so if you like Gygaxian fantasy, this is the game for you.
Gary Gygax said it best himself "With all of the tens of thousands of roleplaying game systems, and hundreds of thousands of more of suplement materials that people have never even seen, do we need another Dungeons & Dragons?"
Sprocket Joined: 02-17-2008, 04:30 PM Posts: 17 Location: Terrace BC
ScrubKai - I don't think awarding XP for social situations really constitutes adding to roleplaying or even a new edition. I am glad that WocT has recognized this finaly as this is a great "written" improvement, but as any DM since 1978 knows, we have been doing that for 20 years. You are dead right about Lejendary Adventure! It's a great game but the books do read like Japanese Stereo Instructions! LMAO! Good One! I am in contact with Gary, and if you have been checking out his posts lately, he has finished the revision of LA and showed at off at the Lake Geneva Convention. As of two days ago he has said it should come out this summer as Troll Lord Games has been focusing alot of it's attention to the growing need for Lejendary Adventure material (Like the original hardcover non-essentials, lol). Also if you have been checking out Troll Lord Games site in the last 3 months, you will notice huge 50% off sales on the Lejendary Adventure Essentials handbook set, to sell off their stock to make room for the new LA Edition. Notice how they only discount the soon to be replaced Essentials Edition and not the rest of the LA products, it's coming soon! I hope!
UHF - Comparred to system like Castles & Crusades, D&D 3.0-3.5 is anything but flexible. I know what you mean, but if you only use a few mechanics from D&D then you might as well be playing a system that is complette and got it right the first time. I enjoy rules light games and the felexiblity of adding any material from and source, and as any Castles & Crusades players know, ANY rpg material can be EASILY converted to C&C, while anything 3.0-3.5 will require alot of time to ballance it right without just making up stats and winging it. I 100% agree about not needing anything but the core rulebook. Im not a fan of campaign settings as I have a WICKED imagination! But I do love Bakers Ebberon setting, and have read that book MANY times. Chunky Dungeons is very sweet! I got to show it off at Great White Entertainments Forgotten Realms night, and they loved it! Since I have seen 4 guys buy the set, and it makes me proud to see more Chunky Dungeons! MORE CHUNKEY DUNGEONS! Also about popularity. I know Wizards of the Coast have brought D&D to the mainstream, but as anyone attending GenCon last year knows Dungeons & Dragons peak of popularity was in 1981, and no matter how big WocT is, they will never again penetrate the market like the good old days of TSR and 1981 (Unless everyone forgets what video games are entirely)
Lord_Abbadon - "Any RPG is what you make of it" I couldn't have said it better myself. That totally captures the heart on why any game system can be debated to be great (even F.A.T.A.L), and deffinately describes what UHF was saying about how he thinks D&D is flexible. Even though I may dissagree 100% about the flexibility factor, I am sure that is is tottaly flexible the way he plays it. Damn, you gave me a one liner that sums up why I shouldn't really be disheartening to 4th Edition, lol. I just think that if you have to drop half of the rules of a game to make it work for you, then you might have picked the wrong game in the first place! There are better choices other than WotC Mega-Marketting Machiene 4th Edition (I was there last year when it was unveiled, and like everyone else there I was extreamly unimpressed by how patheticly unknowledgable the WotC D&D staff was those days towards roleplaying in general, allthough those were crazy days and if 5000 people wanted to talk to me all day I might be a little "unknowledgeble"lol). I have wanted to check out Savage Worlds since the day I heard you mentioned it on World Works Radio. Also I am going to Australia in 5 days, and believe this or not, we are going because my wife was listening to you talk about how nice Australia is on the broadcast. So thanks!!!!
Just so everyone knows, I don't think 4th Edition is a bad idea, just not needed! Infact I will agree 100% that I like it much much much more than 3.0-3.5., just not as much as a game like C&C. There is some really great improvements, expecially in the way that they have cleaned it up to a rules-medium game. I will be buying them no matter what as gaming feeds my wife and children, and there is no way I won't be knowledgable about any D&D product. Also to everyone I responeded to above, nothing personal about the game you love, I am just sick of seeing kid after kid (adult after adult) get suckered into buying multiple $50+ books, and only using 20% of the material.
Also does anyone here know that even though the American dollar and Canadian dollar are par, and have been for awhile, that Wizards of the Coast is going to be charging the same price for their products (even though their smaller) and are going to be charging Canadians more than our counterparts? This is price gouging as all books printed after January 2 2008 are supposed to adhear to the new book MSRP laws, but WocT has illegally stuck to the 1994 book MSRP. I do all the ordering for GWE, and I know that we are buying our stock at the same price as our American retailer, so why does WotC still make us charge the Canadian price, expecially on the newer books which apparently are supposed to be priced with the new MSRP? You can see my discontention with suporting a company who litteraly tells us to screw our customers or we can't carry their products.
In retalliation (LOL) I have refused to sell Dungeons & Dragons Tile set books. When someone comes to the till with one of those books, I turn my laptop around to show them the WorldWorksGames website (which is mostly allready on the screen, lol) and show them what they can really get for $15. I have never had a single custommer purchase a D&D Tile book after showing them WWG, and then I usually see them at games night a week later with their new Chunky Dungeons build/Mayhem build. Side question: Why is it evertime I show a hardcore fantasy player the WorldWorksGames site, they come back as Mayhem building HeroClix player? Lol
Dirigible Joined: 10-17-2007, 07:46 AM Posts: 1201
Where do you get off saying what is or is not needed? What makes you think I'm being suckered?
You have not even made an objective or measureable arguement. Your only arguement is that you just don't personally like D&D, and you don't like Wizards of the Coast.
Well... tough titties. Get over yourself...
Once again, my players remind me that AD&D stands for Attention Deficit & Disorder...
"Is it simpler thatn 3.x? Oh hell yes. But it is elegantly simple. Intuitive."
From what we've now played, I'll just say this to be fair:
It's not simplistic or even elegantly simplistic. I think it's rules light bordering on devoid of any real meaty rules. If I had to guess what drove the design of 4th Edition, I would say it is an attempt to make D&D more like a video game than a role-playing game. The less dice, rules and time the players have to use to get to the end goal of playing a session. I think the other goal is that quests can be one-off games that end in a level 10+ character, but that's okay, because we want you to get the most out of one session.
Here's an example without breaking my contract -
You have an halfling. In the past halfings have been good at doing certain things because their certain racial traits and ability to multiclass theif-wise better have allowed gamers to tailor them thusly.
Now, take all that stuff and toss it out the window. You want an halfling warrior tank? Go ahead. You want an halfling necromancer? Go ahead. You want a halfling paladin. Go ahead.
Also, being a cleric is less important anymore. Hey, wizards! You can now fulfill the role of healer in your group, never run out of spells and possibly tank depending on your role in the party!
Don't even get me started about leveling up and the Epic level game. Half a campaign in from scratch, and we already have a level 13 warlord in our party. That's only 5 hours of playing and we already broke the level 10 barrier in our two adventures.
Plus, you know, no druids or half-orcs right now because those things have backgrounds that are unsuitable for children and Christians. Until they can figure out how to nerf the rape or the worship of elder gods type of stuff.
* Upon reading this guy's drooling over 4th Ed, I'm almost willing to cry shill. He's mixing both the RPG and the miniatures rules together wontonly and isn't quite telling the truth about combat.
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Sprocket Joined: 02-17-2008, 04:30 PM Posts: 17 Location: Terrace BC
UHF - If your paying $135.99 before tax for all three core D&D handbooks, then yes you are definately being suckered! But hey I have them too so we both got swindled. Who am I to tell you? Im the guy selling this stuff to you! Oh and I love D&D! TSR's version of D&D! All joking aside, it is criminal!
This review though is serriously rediculous. I really thought is was going nowhere when in the first few sentences when he said he sold his Dwarven Forge peices and miniatures game beause 4th Edition was THAT good. In the first place if this guy has the mentallity that you NEEDED miniatures to play 3.5, then he's not really a gamer I want advice from. I just laugh when people base a review on WotC catch phrases, At the conference they said many times that "4th Edition is less miniatures based than any version before!" And his review seamed to hold true to that as he stated that at the start of the review. Maybe I just disliked his style, or maybe I don't want a Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition that makes me throw away my entire collection of World Works models and my HeroClix stash! Cause if this kids right, theres some creepy WotC magic that's going to use the Force to Force Throw our Miniatures and model sets away! Maybe he was just kidding, but do you wanna take that chance?.............
When I was elementary school I was paying $20US a book, or $117 US present day for all 3. I remember it was a lot of money at the time.. I think it was like $17 for the smaller books, but the DMG was like $25...
Once again, my players remind me that AD&D stands for Attention Deficit & Disorder...
Sprocket Joined: 02-17-2008, 04:30 PM Posts: 17 Location: Terrace BC
Granted, but come on, in the early 80's Gary ran TSR out of a house at that time! Not to forget they wern't a huge powerhouse company, they had bills like Hydro and heat, and children to feed! Considering the cost for them to produce materials, and the fact TSR had to sell lifetime subscriptions just to make ends meet! Heck yeah I would consider that pretty cheap!
Imagine it as if WorldWorksGames were back in the 80's?
Dirigible Joined: 10-17-2007, 07:46 AM Posts: 1201
I read all of that review (all 3 parts)...
Umm.. It didn't seem that wacked out to me.
These days, most DMs play hugely with miniatures. I play with an older crowd (2ed AD&D) so we usually use pennies, vinyl, and a pen. Most players at the shop are using the D&D miniatures, vinyl, and a pen. (I'm trying to convert people from vinyl to Chunky Dungeons.)
In short, this isn't new. The players are already struggling to get map based tactics from D&D now. (Perhaps Wizards realized that this is what many players were buying their miniatures for. Its what I bought the minatures for and I personally think the miniatures game sucks.)
I also don't find the absence of restrictions to be such a problem. I played Role Master. You wanna try funny? My brother had a Half Troll thief. (He runs up to you, lifts you up with one hand, and shouts, "GIMME YOUR MONEY!" Troll thiefs are also good for bashing heads. What's the term? A Thug?)
As for the miniatures taint of the game... I think that will lead to less desire to release more books. If Wizards can make a regular supply of cash from miniature sales, they'll have less need to sell more rules. Who knows, maybe they'll give the rules away...
You see, the gaming industry suffers from the same problem the software industry suffers from. Once you've bought the product, you will never buy the product again. So, to continue making money they need to sell you useless upgrades for horrendous prices, unless you can find an alternative (constant) revenue source. (What happened recently, no one is buying Vista, and Microsoft tried to buy Yahoo? Hmm.. They are both on the coast right?)
I'm not sure why you're saying its a simple upgrade. MCLAUD seems to think its very different.
As for me, I don't have to take any chances what so ever. When it comes out, I will walk down to the store, lift the book off the shelf, and glean what I can from it. I will also check out Castles and Crusaders...
Once again, my players remind me that AD&D stands for Attention Deficit & Disorder...
Boiler Joined: 05-23-2007, 02:13 AM Posts: 298 Location: Katrineholm, Sweden
In my early gaming years from 78 to 92 or so, I was always one to forego miniatures and the like, not even bothering with battlemats, simply sticking to a pad of graph paper and a mechanical pencil. To me, it was primarily about the role playing - all that detailed tactics and movement stuff I left to wargamers.
Upon my return to the hobby a scant few years ago, I've changed my attitude somewhat. I like cards for items (although I make them myself) and am even working on a card-based combat system. I've bought plenty of minis (prepainted - I still do not paint) and have been building Chunky Dungeons and Mayhem 7" squares aplenty.
So I'm really on the fence about 4E. I hated 2E and what I've seen of 3E hasn't done much for me, but there seems to be a certain exuberance about the way 4E is pitched. I'm all for simplicity of presentation and think that the very best rules are simple at heart but with complex consequences. To me, it all depends on whether there is depth there beyond the simplicity - that's a difficult act to get together, so I'm not holding my breath. But neither am I dismissing 4E out of hand.
I kind of have a good feeling about it, but it's actually more despite the Ain't it Cool review than because of it. It's based on other things I've heard and some reading between the lines. Then again, I am en eternal optimist...
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