My players like my DM'ing style as far as mechanics, storyline, interesting 3D elements, etc. The one thing I haven't quite done well enough though, is challenge them. In the 2-3 years I've been DM'ing for this group, I think only 2 people have legitimately fallen unconscious and had to make death saves. I'm always afraid to make the encounters TOO difficult, for fear that one combat encounter will slog on for 2 hours.

A couple of my players made some comments the other day that they weren't too worried about dying or anything. Soooooo...time to bring the pain. I need some help with one particular encounter that I've planned involving a flooded room trap. Here are the details of the environment and enemies:

1. cave setting - players are coming in cave via secret passage from old temple. They will enter on a ledge and be able to hear goblins talking around a campfire. They'll sneak up to the ledge and see the goblins down below around a campfire (some asleep). There will also be an adjoining little cave opening with iron bars on it where there will be 3 wolves (trained by goblins) that are also asleep.

2. enemies - 5 goblins (3 ranged and 2 melee - standard monsters), 3 wolf minions

3. traps - I'm assuming the melee players will hop down off the ledge at some point, and when they do, I have 2 well hidden pit traps on the ground for them to fall into. 2d10 falling damage. At the bottom of the pit, I have a small pressure plate...but it does nothing but draw attention to itself. The real trap within the trap is that there are two "hand holds" on the walls for the player to use to climb out. Those are in fact pressure plates that activate a falling rock trap hanging above the ranged players on the ledge . So when the player tries to climb out of the trap....click....rocks....damage...difficult terrain to boot.


I thought that was enough to damage my players, but after hearing the cocky comments, I've decided to throw something else in there, and that's where I need some help. One of the features of the area is a small pool of water in the back of the cave room. This pool of water is actually how they will escape after the monsters are killed....they'll need to swim under the cave wall and out to the other side into another cave passageway. What I'm thinking about doing is having one of the goblins get scared or whatever during combat and dive into the pool to get to the other side where there are some levers or something that starts the flooding of the entire cave area. The goblin will start the trap and get out via a secret passage.

I may start this trap at the end of combat if the players are getting their butts kicked, or I may start it halfway through to introduce a water element into the encounter to cause further problems. My question though is how to go about flooding the room itself. Do I flood it a little more every 2 rounds? 3 rounds? Maybe take 5 rounds total to completely fill the room with water and have the players scrambling to get out?

I want to hurt them, but I don't want to kill them...at least not now....this is the FIRST encounter of our session tomorrow night and I don't want players dying right off the bat. Suggestions?

Unless the party is heavily stealthed, I doubt that the wolves will be asleep.

What level is this party?

I am old school enough to say 'Let 'Em Die'.

There is nothing quite like a TPK as a learning experience.

A TPK should be an exception, not the rule, but if the players are so certain that you won't kill their characters then....

The Auld Grump - four dead PCs so far this year, spread across three campaigns. None in the kids' game.

well I think most of my players would quit playing completely if their characters died for good. I don't mind killing them and having them resurrected, but again...I don't want it to happen at the very first encounter. I'll figure an out in case they really are ALL going to die.

Anyway, I still need help coming up with how the mechanics will work. Help!

Its all fun and games until the Tarrasque hits the board!

are goblins a serious threat to an 8th level party in 4ed?
As for mechanics, roll a die, your choice, I would say a d8 or d10, and that's how long it takes to fill up. The lower will give them less time to react and find a solution, higher will let them savor their impending demise

Fry 'm.

I regularly punish my party when it doesn't think. (Which is all too often.)

Umm... I'm kinda getting the blahs in Pathfinder for similar reasons. I kinda min\maxed the characters though, so... Its pretty killer. (Greatsword Fighter... Transmuter Wizard beefs up AC, speed (Haste), size (Enlarge).)

So I've taken to skipping super easy fights, in the campaign and beefing up the ones that are worthy. They are finally acting like a team (except for the ADD wizard who has a habit of fireballing the party).

I killed the fighter the other day. (They had a Raise Dead scroll so I figured "What the hay! Lets put that to use!") It took a monstrous effort. But the players know who's boss again.



If you aren't sure how hard to push your party... then you aren't trying hard enough. The players must be at the cusp of death with every fight, or its just not worth the effort. When I was running 4e EL+2 dropped one or two players.

I am one of the most 'for the players' type of DMs that I know and I still realize that in order to keep the players challenged, they have to fear death once in a while. I don't intentionally kill off players, and I will even pull a punch or two, but if a player is dumb enough to get himself killed then so be it.

One word of warning here... Pushing them hard in a fight, and having one die is one thing.
Having them die to a water trap, That's going to seriously irk most players.

My suggestion is to change the encounter a bit.
Have the goblins camping out in a cave with the pit traps fine, but give them three exists to the cave. One goes to the water (swim out), one goes to the barred off cave with the wolves and one that they can't really see (maybe under the ledge) leads to a filthy warren.

Make it so that the passage came out at the edge of a huge complex of goblins, in the wolf training area.

Have one of the goblins run screaming down that passage below when they start getting attacked and a second dive into the water and not come up. Then once the players are on the floor engaged in melee let them hear some really loud noise that reoccurs every round coming from the warren. Then As the fight seems to start to be really going the character's way make them hear shrieking from the warrens.
About as round later have a wave of minions burst out of the warren. The next round or two later burst out another wave with a non-minnon leader. Continue adding a new group every round or two slowly increasing the number of non-minons.

Make the goblins a force of nature here... Not something that can actually be defeated via force from the PCs. But remember the goblin goal here is to defend their home, NOT to kill the PCs. So they will generally try to push them back to the water, and always give them a passage to run if they want to.
(Maybe using a variant on the Hobgoblin Warcaster's force lure power to nudge them in the right direction if they aren't moving back.)

After Daily and encounter powers are used, and STILL more come, they should get the message. If not and you don't want to kill them, have the goblins stabilize any dropped PC after they go down and capture them.
If the PCs don't still don't run, and you do TPK, have all the PCs wake when they splash in the water, stripped of one really valuable item each (yes even a magic item) and with single digit HP. When they struggle to the surface, have them see they are in the pool in the room except the floor, walls and ceiling are all literally crawling with a mob of goblins. Put an obvious goblin chief in front of them holding at least one of their items.

I would have the goblin chief say something like:
"You biggins killed many members of tribe. I take shiners as payment. <he holds up the item> You swim now way you came in, or we not warn again." Then he turns and says in Goblin :"Kill them if they move from the pool or attack" and walks away back to the warren.

If the PCs swim away, then all ends (for now, you know the PCs will come back eventually) If they try to attack, Hell Kill them all. If they try to talk, then the goblins should be very unwilling to help given the number of the tribe the probably just killed.

Basically I"m replacing your water with Goblins, as a friendly reminder to the players that sometimes the proper strategy is to RUN from an encounter, not Fight. If you just threaten them with water they will just think you are jerking them around, not that sometimes they have to think before they fight.... Which I thought was the whole point of this.

Fireballing the entire area of a grand melee used to be one of the wizard's standard tactics....

This was with about ten or eleven PCs, and back when fireballs were BIG (33,000 cubic feet) and the excess volume could come roaring back down the corridor at the wizard and his crew. a 30x30'x10' room eats up 9,000 of that, leaving the majority to blast down the corridors.... about twenty-four 10'x10'x10' squares on the standard D&D map of the time.

I was in a game (back in AD&D) where all the PCs had rings of protection from fire. Then it really became a viable tactic.

***

I am also of the opinion that throwing too much of a softball game is taking some of the fun away from your players. They want a challenge - tough fights are the ones that become war stories later on.


The quote is from the GM book for 7th Sea - still one of the best books on the art of the game master.

In regards to traps... I admit that I sometimes cheat when it comes to pit traps - if the PCs find the trap without falling in I will sometimes add thirty feet. They love it when they avoid falling into a death trap.

The Auld Grump

I would give them 10 rounds. Gives them time to explore.

Make it so that they will have to make swim checks and strength checks to move against the flow of water through the tunnel to the other chamber UNTIL it has filled the room - now they're on a timer as they begin to drown (constitution checks).

Don't forget armour penalties for moving through the water.

Round 1-2 no effect
Round 3-4 knee high difficult terrain
Round 5-6 waste high worse
Round 7-8 neck/head high worse
Round 9-10 over head

You could also have predatory fish or reptiles or elementals in the water if you want to make it harder.

You can have a barred portcullis fall behind the goblin that escapes and pulls the lever to slow the heroes down.

aaand I just checked the post time ... whelp, hope it went well!