That's odd. It still works for me. I even tried using a different browser. It prompted me to log into the Wizards website with my username and password, but still took me to that customer service page with the download link.

Oh, and as of a bit ago, the forums post that I linked above had a total of 106 pages of responses from gamers about the problems downloading the playtest. It looks like a LOT of gamers are really interested in what happens with D&D NEXT. Either a lot of them are afraid of where it might be heading or are anxious for it to get back to what they expect/want D&D to be.

Link works now that the main page works. I think it is tied to the form I had to fill out to verify. Glad your link works though, since it then means I don't have to wait the 30-60 minutes to get the email.

The download worked fine for me this morning. I just haven't had time to really go through the documents yet in detail. That said the core looks closer to 2/3E then anything else except for the advantage/disadvantage rules.

I'm only about half way through the "How to Play" document, but it's looking like it's a mish-mash of 2nd ed, 3rd ed and 4th ed. Wizard spells work like 3rd ed and before (Vancian magic) but clerics work like the 3rd ed sorcerers do. They don't have to memorize spells each day. Interesting. The 2 different clerics really do look and feel like they function very differently in combat, too.

No Attacks of Opportunity? Yeah, that worked well for the original d20 Star Wars. Everyone just ran around all the stormtroopers and lightsabered the big bad guys on the first round of combat. No skills, either???

And it kinda looks like your attacks are just your ability modifier + some unexplained thing called "weapon or magic training" + magic weapon bonus + situational modifiers. Huh??? There must be something here they're not really explaining 'cuz the sample NPCs have to hits that don't make sense. I assume that "training" stuff increases with level 'cuz I can't see how you're ever going to hit tougher monsters.

Maybe they're just not giving us all the details/rules, but it feels kinda dumbed-down at present.

I had decided that I was going to wait before checking it out, but some of my players brought it to the non-game tonight (we ended up seeing MiB III instead).

I will be honest and say that I did not go into it expecting to be impressed, and, sure enough, I wasn't.

It just felt like a giant step backwards - in particular the way skills are handled.

I also did not like the (over)emphasis on ability scores. At all.

But, as I said, I was not optimistic in the first place.

While I can understand that they they want monsters to be useable over more levels there are better ways of achieving that goal - both Fantasy Craft and Pathfinder (and 3.5) have different ways of handling that goal.

I do like what I saw of 5e more than 4e, but that is a comparison of dislikes, not preferences - I just dislike 5e less than 4e, at least so far. Fairly early days yet - they can either screw it up entirely or get a Hail Mary. Only time will tell.

Oddly, this seems to be the opinion of my entire group so far. Not the most hopeful of signs, that.

The Auld Grump

From what it appears (no character creation rules), you can use any skill with your Attribute bonus as the only modifier, but you take a Background that gives you bonuses to certain skills. Would not be surprised if Class ended up adding some as well. Skills seem to be VERY downplayed and the fact that saving throws are handled exactly like a skill roll is...weird to say the least.

This is not sounding great guys. The comments could just as easily have come from early reviews of any one of a number of d20 spin-off systems. Still it could all come together in a way that really works (even if large sections of that space are already occupied by the aforesaid d20 spin-offs).

Unfortunately, that link is no longer viable.

I had to hit the D&D Next Web site twice to get through and was able to sign up. Waiting now to see if I get my email to download the materials and will see how that goes.

Edit: got the email and the materials...looks...not much different so far. Favorite part: Caves of Chaos blue and white map.

I suddenly realized why it seemed familiar - while not an identical system by any means the skill system reminded me a good deal of the system in Castles & Crusades.... Attribute modifier instead of attribute, but....

The Auld Grump

Another observation - more demo than playtest.

Compare it to the playtests that Paizo performed. There is not enough material here to do more than try out what they give you, no char gen, no real way to try scenario creation.... You can do what they give you, but not expand on it.

The base sympto, err, system, does not much appeal to me. It may be a fine system for others, but I think that they have taken the wrong path for folks that like character progression to be more dramatic. The hard locks on spell damage makes it less appealing as well.

Saving throws.... negative-neutral on. Again, too static, at least at this point.

And, final observation for now - the terms and systems are still dissimilar enough to 3.X that it cannot be emulated with the OGL. I strongly suspect that the license, while likely less restrictive than at least the first iteration of the GSL, will not be an acceptable replacement for the OGL, and without that strength D&D Next will end up being D&D Last.

I honestly think that they would be better off doing either their own version of 3.75 or keeping to the 4e architecture that they have saddled themselves with.

Ah well, too late now, the die has been cast.

The Auld Grump

Okay, I lied, one more observation - the 5e demonstration rules did not fill me with the need to invest more time in the rules.

This is not a negative observation about the rules - it has more to do with my own perceptions. Right now I am invested in 3.X/Pathfinder - there is a certain amount of energy/interest that must be present to overcome that inertia.

Pathfinder does what I want it to - and at this stage 5e does not.

However, these are very early days - and much of the information that might add that energy/interest is not yet present. Until I can generate a character I cannot see how some of the elements interact, leading to what may be a premature dismissal of the system as a whole. And I have not yet seen that whole.

All I have is some pregens, some simplified systems, and some very rough monsters.

However, I am a pretty good judge of systems - I knew that I disliked 4e before it did more than poke its head around the corner, and subsequent observations only confirmed my suspicions.

This time my suspicions are based more on my observations of the emergence of 4e than of the 5e system as a whole. I am biased.

I am being cautious. More than a bit hostile, as though I were approaching a dog that has already bitten me once. (In part because, metaphorically speaking, WotC already has bitten me.)

In short, I am not certain that I can give this a fair consideration. They have to overcome an active dislike upon my part.

The Auld Grump

At first glace I agreed with you Gump,

But thinking about it from a Testing perspective what they released looks to make decent sense to me.

If you really plan on letting people give basic feedback that could change basic portions of the system, then this approach of only releasing what you want feedback on makes sense. Like in your case you don't seem to like the way skills are handled, so if they are willing to change the system very seriously, then you wouldn't release anything but what you wanted looked at.

If however you already had the core system in place and you were just looking to tweak the details (As Pathfinder had with 3.5 rules already set) then what they released is just marketing....

I'll be interested in seeing what happens over time. I've heard this is just the first of many play test releases. If over the coming weeks/months the core systems changes, and they release more and more rules that expand the system in small chucks, then I'll know that they are actually making a feedback loop that adds community feedback into the edition design.

Assuming at 2013 GenCon release schedule, then I would expect that they would have to have a locked down core rules system that allows you to do as much as the Pathfinder playtest, no later then the end of the year if they really want to get detailed feedback in time for August release. And even that seems to be pretty darn aggressive to get enough feedback in 2 or 3 months.

If I don't see that... Well then I know this is all just for show and we probably just stick with our massively house ruled 3E/4E conglomeration that we run for our game.

Okay, I need to add two positive bits.

1. The return of measuring with a ruler! I am not a huge fan of squares, but use them because 3.5 and all its children use them for combat.

2. The return of the Caves of Chaos.

Scrub Kai - I disagree a bit on the release of Pathfinder as 'just marketing' there are substantial changes between 3.5 and Pathfinder Beta and between Pathfinder Beta and Pathfinder.

In particular the way skills and combat actions are handled.

Oddly the Beta actually had more differences than the actual Pathfinder Core Rules. (Until the APG introduced archetypes - which changed the game....)

Not being able to see how the skills fit in with character creation seriously hobbles the playtest for 5e.

Still, I am liking it more than I did 4e - and this series of releases, whether they are playtests or demos, should prevent the kinds of nasty surprises that 4e unleashed on an unsuspecting populace. (Why, yes, that was hyperbole. Why do you ask?)

The Auld Grump

I'm really struggling with this so far, mainly because my mind keep going: "Oh, g*d, not another D&D spin-off system! There are enough hybrids of D&D [whatever-e] out there already. Do we really need another one?"

What I see of Background and Theme has me interested enough to keep up, but until we get character gen rules (I'm hearing next month), I'm still neutral and sticking with Pathfinder, though I may still run the test adventure.

I started compiling a group to run through the playtest at least once. Character creation will be important to me, I am sure, but for now I am content with trying out what they have released as is.

It seems to me that the responces are predictable. Those who are looking for things to dislike find them quickly. Those who are looking for something to like find it. (reffering to the blog-o-sphere guys)

For myself, I loved some things about 4e. I soon dropped things that didn't like and had a great time. A much BETTER time than Dnd ADnD ect.

So I will go into my two playtest games this week with optimism. And I will probably find things I like first. Later down the road I will drop the stuff I don't like and have a good time.

What is certain for me is I won't go looking for the 3 people who still want to play some game no one else is playing. I will play the system the guys are using and adjust it to our liking.

Since the general public have never heard of Pathfinder ect, my guess is I will be adding DnD players.

I understand the 4e is being outsold, but when I talk to the GENERAL PUBLIC they have NEVER heard of pathfinder and have ALWAYS heard of DND. So when new players pop up and want to play they are never going to ask for a product they have never heard of. Sure, if you're hanging around your freindly neighborhood store half the people will know the game, but the rest of the WORLD knows DND. When was the last time you heard pathfinder make the news for anything? ANYTHING?

For better or worse DnD wins new players.

*edit* gotta stop with the caps, sorry!

I guess I am a fan of role playing 1st and what ever gets people in the door 2nd. DnD fills that role for the time being. I look forward to Pathfinder books novels comics movies cartoons and any other means to get people to try role playing for the first time. Till then, I will root for the success of good old DnD cuz they get people to notice.

Once you play, find a game that REALY fits you! Then we all win.

Has the product failed before? Sure, but they at least keep on swinging. I welcome any one else to get off the bench.

'D&D' is very well recognized. However, D&D has gone the way of brands like Aqua-lung and Zipper, even though one corporation may own the brand it has become a generic label for something available from a range of suppliers. A classic example is Hoover in the UK, even though the Hoover Corporation control the brand and associated trademarks, 'hoover' is common name for a vacuum cleaner there. "I just bought a new hoover." "Oh, really! What brand did you buy?"

With D&D it's: "I play role-playing games." "Role playing games?" "You know, D&D. Dungeons & Dragons." "Oh, right. What system do you use?" "We use [4e/Pathfinder/...]" "Is it any good?" and so it goes.

Owning the D&D brand does give WotC a marketing advantage. But, like Hoover in the UK, it is only an advantage. Once the market matures and the dominant player loses its dominance (as has happened with D&D) it never gets it back. You may think Apple's spectacular comeback belies this, but their return to brand dominance has come from inventing new completely product lines (iPod, iPhone and iPad), not rearchitecting their old one (Apple Mac).

Now if WotC do an Apple and introduce something truly innovative with 5e, that would be great. So far it's looking to me like just another D&D spin-off (albeit, with a big production team and a well known trademark, but also saddled with the bloated revenue expectations that go with that).

I hope they pull off the hail mary too! But if and when they fail, who gets the word out? I hope someone is the next Zippo, but so far none seem to even be in the public relations game. Pathfinder video games? Movies? Cartoons? Comics? Sounds sweet! What are they waiting for?

Answer: DnD to pull off the hail mary!

So cheers to the success of DnD! The only ones even trying to get the word out of the basements and into the minds of the general public.

Sorry if I have no faith in the next Zippo, but when are they going to do anything? Why wait?

I'll be rooting for THEM if and when the ever do!

Damn! I said no caps!

A Pathfinder is already in the works...

A was made based on the first Pathfinder adventure. (The Paizo crew flew out to see it. )

A Pathfinder comic book is coming out....



Happy yet?

Paizo isn't waiting around for WotC to give them a happy ending... they are making their own.

The Auld Grump

Sweet! sign me up!

Sorry that I never heard of them. Word should be getting out any day now.

Been getting out, sometimes on these very forums....

The basic idea behind the Pathfinder MORPG is very different - PCs will be able to found their own kingdoms, and quests are unique - so you won't be able to buy a clue book to tell you how to solve a given quest. A sandbox.

As an aside - a friend of mine plays the D&D MORPG Stormreach.... He is very happy with it.

One of the defining moments was early on, when he was complaining to me that 'in the real world I'd be able to jump and grab that... ledge....' Because, of course, he was trying to demonstrate that MORPGs don't allow things like that. Stormreach does allow it, though, something that he learned right that very moment.

It is not his every day game, but he keeps his account for when he feels like wandering around Eberron.

He maintains a subscription on City of Heroes for that same reason - sometimes he feels like being a superhero.

The Auld Grump