Here:



A still from Patlabor. The pilot's head is sticking out of the neck which opens along with the chest to gain entry or when the cameras are damaged. The pilot's seat elevates but is normally in the chest compartment.


And note by comparing the jet mode and robot mode of the Veritechs in Robotech





The pilot remains in the cockpit which becomes the chest. Now granted, it's been a REALLY long time since I saw Robotech but I don't recall anyone ending up in the head. I do remember Veritechs getting their heads destroyed but not the pilots killed.

You're right about the cheese but that's merely an accounting for taste. You don't like giant robots and I do. No amount of argument will change that for either of us. I just think overreliance on what is known reduces the potential for enjoyment. And I got your point but you seem to have skipped my follow up, namely that in the context of the shows conventional weapons like tanks and planes ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. The robots are (by and large) faster, better armed and armoured, more mobile and just plain superior to a battalion of tanks or squadron of planes. It doesn't matter whether or not you (as the viewer) think they shouldn't be, the show's creators have already established that they ARE and that's all there is to it. Almost ironically, the only mech show I can think of that doesn't make the robots superior is Patlabor, which in turn is probably why it's so dull.

But you're right, we could dance 'round this maypole all year and get nowhere, so let's move on.

When you say "Fantasy anime" what are you defining it as? Anything fanciful? Or D&D type fantasy? Speaking for myself, I don't much care for the "whimsy" type fantasy, all that "wonder of the inner child" stuff just doesn't do it for me, my inner child is 10, not 4. Mononoke was good but that's about my limit in that direction.
Of the latter I can recommend the OVA series Record of Lodoss war (but not the tv version, it's crap). For those who like their fantasy tongue-in-cheek (with a healthy smattering of heavy metal band references) Bastard! is loads of fun.

The movie Patlabor I suspect - the TV show has much more craptastic art. (And is what I mentioned). And elevated the pilot does indeed put his head in the 'labor's head.

Look for the Thunderbolt style mecha in Robotech, in one of the first few bits, if not the very first - the pilot climbs in through a hatch in the top of the head, and remains visible through its eyes/windshields.
This is the Battletech version. (It was one of the models that they had to discontinue due to trademark violation.) Revell produced a licensed plastic model in the early eighties if I recall properly. Mind you the head is low into the chest, but vision is still through the 'eyes'. It also shows the 'blow me apart at the waist' slope that I wrote of.

As for the argument that normal tanks etc. are not good enough, why then would a piece of crappy engineering like a mecha be good enough? Let us add bad engineering and it suddenly becomes better? I do not think so. So please stop insulting my intelligence by telling me that I should think so. I can give a number of reasons that they would not be used, and your only real response comes down to 'they look cool'. To me they look stupid, not cool.

Fantasy is that which pertains to magic, as magic. The setting does not need to be medieval, but there does need to be the fantastic. So Princess Mononoke, Kiki's Delivery Service and Spirited Away would all qualify as fantasy, despite the differences in setting. So for that matter would Vampire Hunter D, bad as it was.

The Auld Grump

That patlabor clip IS from the show. And I'm not trying to insult your intelligence or tell you what you should think, Grump, I'm provinding explanations. That you find them unsatisfactory isn't really my fault. You could give 1,000,000 reasons why they wouldn't be used and it wouldn't make a lick of difference since they ARE used in the shows (often as the whole basis OF the show). I'm not arguing that the robot is better than a tank because I don't have to, it's DEMONSTRABLY better than a tank WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE SHOW. Real life doesn't enter into it one whit.

Doesn't matter though. If you think my only reason is they look cool, that's certainly more than enough reason for me. I just think it's a shame you can't get past what you know and am once again forced to wonder how you are ever able to enjoy anything remotely unrealistic (like say, magic, dragons, vampires, aliens, spaceships, etc, etc).

Defining fantasy as fantasy wherin magic is magic.... that's a really broad range in anime. You might want to start sub-catagorizing.

For my part I cannot understand how a reasonably intelligent person can look at most mecha designs and not roll their eyes. From common sense if nothing else.

I take delight in fantasy that is self consistent, and does not change from that internal consistency for what 'looks cool'. Fantasy that has the same internal rigors as good science fiction if you will. Magic that follows laws as rigid in their ways as the laws of physics. (I.e. does not work one way in one scene and another way later on.) The enjoyment is greater when they can get me to willingly suspend my disbelief. If I can learn something while watching it then all the better.

As an example - Raiders of the Lost Ark allowed me to suspend my disbelief, despite the illogic of Indie hiding away on board a U-Boat. Temple of Goons on the other hand did not, starting with the fact that they all died when the rubber raft hit the water. Even a little research into the Thugee cult would have been appreciated, instead you had a pseudo Aztec ceremony being performed by a priest in pseudo Aztec garb.

I do not recall Patlabor showing on Fox (not disbelieving you, as I said I do not watch TV these days), could this be a later series than the one I am remembering? (The series also had a humungous sea creature show up that looked remarkably like one of the characters...)

The Auld Grump

Part of it may be upbringing - my father was a Naval engineer and machinist, and had many books detailing the catastrophic engineering failures of naval vehicles, particularly submarines (on which he served in the military). So I grew up knowing the consequences of bad engineering, and enough about the subject to recognize incredibly bad engineering when I saw it.

I have the same problem to a lesser extent with WH40K, but at least in that case I can blame a regressed technology, the Land Raider in particular borrows from the WWI Mk I Male. When I built the plastic Predator I made the same fix to the turret that the Soviets needed to make on one of theirs in the 1960s - an armored skirt around the turret waist to prevent any explosions from blowing it apart at the ring. (The same problem with the waists on mecha, for what it is worth. That particular error was made in the real world, and needed to be dealt with after the fact.)

I then took up military science and military history as a hobby. My favorite toys as a child were Lego blocks, Erector sets, and Panel and Girder sets. And, of course, paper modeling. Alas, my math is not up to the rigors of proper engineering, but I can do a fair job of plotting stress points on most structures.

As to why should I care, let me turn it around - why do the producers not care? It is possible to be entertaining and educational at the same time, read Terry Pratchett for an example. I do my homework, and I appreciate it when others do as well. Terry Pratchett does as well, and as a result I gain a great deal of pleasure from his works. R. A. Salvatore does not, with the result that I do not read his books.

The Auld Grump

Hi Grump! I fully agree with you that giant fighting robots don't make much sense from a design perspective. And personally I don't much care for Anime either. That doesn't mean it can't be fun to see some giant mechas beat the crap out of each other every once in a while.

So here's a challenge for you (and whomever else wants to participate)...

Can we come up with a set of circumstances (technical innovations, whatever) under which giant fighting robots *would* make sense? (Not to make any apologies for any existing shows, obviously. But in case someone might want to set their own gaming world, for example.)

Let me start with some examples:

- Why bother having hand-to hand mecha fights if you can just blow them away with a cannon? Well, for giant robots to make sense, I guess high-powered explosives would have to be less effective than slugging the opposite robot with something heavy - like another mecha's arm. So how about something like the personal force fields in Dune, for example? Something that takes away much of the punch of high-velocity projectiles or explosives - for simplicity's sake, let's say it's a new-fangled alloy that dissipates high-velocity impacts. *That* would change the playing field dramatically. Sudenly, the game becomes swinging big chunks of steel around. So you need arms for leverage and reach. And a high profile would not nearly be as crazy as in a world where missile fire rules.

- Legs have some obvious advantages over wheels in very rugged terrain. Yes, modern tanks are pretty incredible in terms of what terrain they can traverse, but they're not going to climb any mountains or buildings, and the more skyscrapers you blast to bits, the more trouble they'll have.

- High center of gravity is a serious drawback, but flywheels aren't the only solution. How about the dynamic stabilization concept used in Dean Kamen's Segway, or his iBOT wheelchair which can balance on two wheels and climb chairs. Maybe add in a system of high-speed pumps pumping mercury around to maintain balance even in some really exaggerated poses?

Watching a movie that many times isn't surprising in the least to me.

But, my angle is a bit different. I work for Cambridge Soundworks (no relation to WorldWorks ), and for many years I was the manager of a few of the stores (Now I'm in the warehouse, as the Service Manager. Muuuuuch better).

Given that home theater is a main focus of most audio companies (save tweaky, high-end stuff, bless 'em), we had movies that would loop all day.

I must've seen The Matrix well over 1,000 times. And the lobby scene? 2,500 easy.

The odd thing? I still love it.

Heh, I am a Unitarian/Universalist, lapsed Catholic. (One of our Catholic priests at the school I went to was a player in the first D&D game I ever ran, back in 1975.) My girlfriend is semi-pseudo-sorta Mormon.For reasons that escape me her mom approves of me.

As for a reason for HFVs, the only reason that I can come up with for large mecha is arena fighting. And I suspect that like professional wrestling the bouts are staged. It does not have to make sense, just be spectacular - I can see cables whipping around spitting sparks when an arm is torn off who's only job is to whip around spitting sparks when the arm is torn off. And a button labeled 'arm release' that makes it easier for the arm to be torn off without damaging the mech... Arena battles also give a reason for Kung Fu mecha.

Shatterdragon - I do not consider my viewpoint a limitation, but rather a standard. Most anime does not meet that standard. Miyazaki does. Also - I do consider faerie stories to be fantasy, and the root of most people's exposure to the genre. So movies like Spirited away strike a nostalgia button for me. I am also a fan of children's literature.

I have not seen Steamboy - by the time I had talked myself into seeing it the movie had left the theaters. While I did not like Akira I will admit that with a few exceptions the frame rate was good. My problems were with the characters, I just wanted them all to die.

I have to plead guilty as to steam power... Nostalgia and whimsy stirred into one. Mind you, I wouldn't like GIANT steam powered mecha, but 10-12 foot tall 'jacks I can live with.

Meanwhile, I finally broke down and bought Labrynth,,, And intend to watch it tonight. One of my bosses is a huge David Bowie fan, she won a chance to interview him on radio a few years ago here in Portland, and was amazed to discover that he is a nice guy. She was walking on clouds for about a week after.

The Auld Grump, who considered Hoggle as an avatar...

MMmmm.... jailbait Jennifer Connoley.... What? I said nothing!